> On 25 Aug 2019, at 06:14, Russell Standish <[email protected]> wrote: > > On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 01:15:38PM +1000, Bruce Kellett wrote: >> On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 1:01 PM Russell Standish <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 07:34:26PM -0700, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything >> List wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 8/24/2019 6:31 PM, Russell Standish wrote: >>>> On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 10:06:38AM +1000, Bruce Kellett wrote: >>>>> On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 9:45 AM Russell Standish < >> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 05:18:47PM -0400, John Clark wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > >> OK so 0=1, that's fine. >>>>> > >>>>> > > No, that is not fine. If 0=1, pigs have wings. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > Yes but that's OK too, if nothing physical exists then pigs >> and wings >>>>> can't >>>>> > cause problems because they don't exist. And there are no >> minds that >>>>> might be >>>>> > upset by paradoxes. >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> That's kind of the point, though. Minds are nonphysical things, >> and >>>>> there is no apriori reason why physical things need to exist for >> minds >>>>> to exist. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You have evidence for disembodied minds? >>>> That's not an apriori reason. Assuming you're in principle OK with the >>>> concept of a brain in a vat (which is a disembodied mind), then the >>>> you too do not have an apriori reason for the existence of physical >>>> things. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> I don't see that a brain in a vat counts as a disembodied mind. Do you >> mean >>> a brain that has no environment to perceive or act on? I would deny that >>> such an isolated brain instantiates a mind. On the other hand, if the >> brain >>> has sensors and actuators operating, say a Mars Rover, then it isn't >>> disembodied. >>> >>> Brent >>> >> >> Yes - I know your argument. In the BIV scenario, the environment could >> be simulated. Basically Descartes' evil daemon (malin genie) >> scenario. Nothing about the observed physics (bodies and whatnot) >> exists in any fundamental sense. >> >> >> Presumably the vat is a physical object that provides nutrients, power, etc >> to >> the BIV. That does not count as disembodied in my book. >> > > Neither the brain, nor the vat is a body. The body is actually > simulated by the evil daemon, and doesn't exist ontologically. Hence > disembodied. > > Now Brent makes good arguments (and I echo simular arguments in my > book) that a body must exist phenomenally (ie exist as an experience > of the mind), but nowhere does there appear to be a requirement for > the body to exist ontologically (in the same reality as the brain and > the vat in this example). > > This is all different from John Clark's argument that something must > exist to breathe fire into all the computations. He calls that > something "matter", and strongly disavows the ability of arithmetic to > do this. Bruno Marchal claims the opposite - that arithmetic, or in > fact any abstract system capable of universal computation, is > sufficient for the job. To be quite frank, I'm a fence sitter in this > debate, as I've yet to see any physically realisable experiment that > can settle the matter.
All the "Kripke models" of Z1¨, X1¨and S4Grz1, obtained through G1* provides the experimental set-up to test mechanism, and up to now, thanks to QM-without-collapse, we can say that no evidences for primitive matter have been found. G* must be optimised to pursue the testing. The irony is that we might need quantum computers to progress in that task. It is a very long term project. Bruno > > -- > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dr Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) > Principal, High Performance Coders > Visiting Senior Research Fellow [email protected] > Economics, Kingston University http://www.hpcoders.com.au > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/20190825041431.GF2402%40zen. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/4DE32A6F-88A6-4D91-BF02-A689F8CAD3BD%40ulb.ac.be.
