On 5/23/2020 11:38 AM, Jason Resch wrote:

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 1:35 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <everything-list@googlegroups.com <mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

    On 5/23/2020 1:42 AM, Jason Resch wrote:

    On Friday, May 22, 2020, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List
    <mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

        On 5/22/2020 1:48 PM, Jason Resch wrote:

        On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 3:27 PM 'Brent Meeker' via
        Everything List <everything-list@googlegroups.com
        <mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

            On 8/4/2019 10:44 AM, Jason Resch wrote:

            On Friday, August 2, 2019, 'Brent Meeker' via
            Everything List <everything-list@googlegroups.com
            <mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

                On 8/2/2019 1:06 PM, Jason Resch wrote:

                On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 1:40 PM 'Brent Meeker' via
                Everything List <everything-list@googlegroups.com
                <mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

                    On 8/2/2019 11:03 AM, Jason Resch wrote:
                    > It is like Saibal Mitra said, the person he
                    was when he was 3 is
                    > dead.  Too much information was added to his
                    brain.  If his 3 year old
                    > self were suddenly replaced with his much
                    older self, you would
                    > conclude the 3 year old was destroyed, but
                    when gradual changes are
                    > made, day by day, common-sense and
                    convention maintains that the
                    > 3-year-old was not destroyed, and still
                    lives. This is the
                    > inconsistency of continuity theories.

                    On the contrary I'd say it illustrates the
                    consistency of causal
                    continuity theories.

                Your close friend walks into a black  box, and
                emerges 1 hour later.

                In case A, he was destroyed in a discontinuous
                way, and a new version of that person was formed
                having the mind of your friend as it might have
                been 1 hour later.
                In case B, he sat around for an hour before emerging.

                You later meet up with the entity who emerges from
                this black box for coffee.

                From your point of view, neither case A nor B is
                physically distinguishable. Yet under your casual
                continuity theory, your friend has either died or
                survived entering the black box.  You have no way
                of knowing if the entity you are having coffee
                with is your friend or not.   Is this a legitimate
                and consistent way of looking at the world?

                Did the black box take A's information in order to
                copy him, or did it make a copy accidentally.

            Would that change the result?

            Holevo's theorem says it's impossible to copy A's state.

        It's a thought experiment. Do you think the quantum state is
        relevant? One typically doesn't track of the quantum state
        of their friend's atoms and use that information as part of
        their recognition process.

                Incidentally, my not knowing the difference between
                two things is not very good evidence that they are
                the same.

            That there's no physical experiment, even in principle,
            that could differentiate the two cases, I take as
            evidence that notions of identity holding there to be a
            difference are illusory.

            But you haven't postulated a case in which it is
            impossible to differentiate the two cases.  It's not
            clear what degree of differentiation is relevant.

        If Holebo's theorem remains fundamental problems, then let's
        move everything into virtual reality, and repeat the experiment.

        In one case your friend's mind file is deleted and restored
        from a backup, and in another he continued without
        interruption. Do not the same conclusions I suggest follow?

        So you're postulating that your friend has been duplicated
        but in a way that you have no way of knowing.  And then you
        ask, "Is this a legitimate and consistent way of looking at
        the world?"  I guess I don't understand the question.  If you
        have no way of knowing, then you don't know...ex hypothesi.


    My point is that identity is an intrinsic property of what
    something is now. The history of the of the constituent particles
    have no affect on the behaviors or operation of those particles.
    To say the history is relevant to identity is to add an arbitrary
    extrinsic property which can be of no physical relevance.

    This is a direct consequence of QM, you can't distinguish two
    electrons, from each other.

    But they still have locations and histories, c.f. Griffiths
    consistent histories interpretation of QM or Feynmann's path
    integral QM.  When electrons make spots on the film in an EPR
    experiment the electron that made this spot is not identical with
    the electron that made that spot in the sense of being the same

    And in any case I don't see how the sameness of particles implies
    the sameness of  complex structures made of particles, i.e. persons.

The indistinguishability of two electrons, means there's no detectable difference between Person A assembled from *this* pile of atoms, and Person B (of a same structure to Person A) made from *that* pile of atoms. The history of the atoms is of no importance to their function.

And you and I might be made from exactly the same set of atoms which have, over time, switched which of our bodies they constitute.  But that wouldn't make us the same person.  So I don't understand your point about personal identity.  The fact that the history of the particles is irrelevant doesn't make the history of complexes like persons irrelevant to their identity.


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