On Friday, July 24, 2020 at 6:59:20 PM UTC-6, Bruce wrote: > > On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 10:19 AM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < > [email protected] <javascript:>> wrote: > >> On 7/24/2020 4:26 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: >> >> On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 9:13 AM Lawrence Crowell < >> [email protected] <javascript:>> wrote: >> >>> >>> It is not the case that gravitons come out of a black hole to >>> intermediate a force between it and some other mass. From the perspective >>> of an exterior observer all mass-energy and quantum fields that make up a >>> black hole are on the event horizon or just above. This is why I got into >>> the whole Tortoise coordinates and so forth. I will have to leave it here I >>> think. >>> >> >> Why does the perspective of an exterior observer have preferred status? >> This is an absurdly intstrumentalist/positivist idea. What matters is the >> objective reality, not what you might chance to see from some perspective >> or the other. The idea of all the mass-energy residing on the stretched >> horizon is just so much positivistic twaddle...... >> >> >> I agree. The question would be "Residing there *when?*" The only >> interest in the distant observers viewpoint is to compare it to what we >> distant observers observe. >> > > > A while ago you, Brent, made an observation that seemed to me to be the > perfect answer to all thoughts of black hole complementarity -- we could > call it "bent stick complementarity". When you partially submerge a > straight stick in water, it appears bent to the external observer; but when > you take it out of the water it appears straight. You can't have it both in > the water and out of the water at the same time, so the two observations > are complementary. Complementarity would say that, from the point of view > of the exterior observer, the stick is in fact bent when it is partially > immersed in water; and it is in fact straight when it is wholly out of the > water. No observer can see both situations at the same time -- they are > complementary. > > Similarly for the observations of the observer exterior to the black hole > and the observer who plunges through the horizon..... The exterior view is > entirely illusory. > > Bruce >
IIRC, LC introduced tortoise coordinates in an objection to my claim that the gravitational field of the BH at the center of our galaxy can be observed, or inferred, from the rotation rate of stars near our galactic core. Is this observation not sufficient? AG -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/167ebc07-f461-4fc2-a04b-2ea90ad66ed0o%40googlegroups.com.
