That’s a very thoughtful reply. I’m interested in learning about some of these fields you mentioned. Right now, I don’t know enough about these fields to give an informed reply.
> On Aug 18, 2020, at 1:05 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> On 16 Aug 2020, at 15:24, Beixiao Robert Liu <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> In Buddhism teachings, a human has eight cognitions. > > Oh! Like the universal machine. You get the cognitions mode by taking into > account Gödel’s incompleteness. > > I abbreviate Gödel’s bewiesibar(‘p’) by []p, p is an arithmetical restricted > to the partial computable/decidable one, the so called sigma_1 sentences: > that’s the arithmetical version of the Digital Mechanist Hypothesis). > <>p is an abbreviation of ~[]~p. “T” is for “0 = 0", f for “0 = 1”. > > In that case, it can be shown that p, []p, []p & p (theaetetus true opinion), > []p & <>t and []p & <>t & p, are equivalent, but very few of those > equivalence can be proved by the machine itself, making those five modes > obeying different logics and mathematics. > > p > []p > []p & p > > Correspond nicely to Plotinus three primary hypostases > > ONE > INTELLECT > SOUL > > Or, with less platonic vocabulary > > TRUE > BELIEVABLE > KNOWABLE > > > The modes > > []p & <>t > []p & <>t & p > > Can be motivated through through experiments and defines what is observable > by the universal machine. They can also be related to Plotinus platonic > reconstruction of Aristotle’s theory of matter, pointing on the presence of > non provability and non controllability. > > Those two modes gives the two “matters”: the intelligible matter (quanta, > first person plural), and the sensible matter (qualia). The “quantum quanta” > appears as special qualia (apparently). > > This gives five modes, but incompleteness splits again three of those logics > ([]p, []p & <>t, []p & <>t & p) in two, ((corresponding to “provable” versus > “true”, making eight "modes of cognition”, or eight ways arithmetic can see > itself through universal numbers). > > The logic of the modes with the occurence of “& p”, gives first person modes, > and describes entities which cannot be defined in any third person > description, something inherited by the qualia, consciousness, etc. > technically, they entail that the subject obeys some intuitionistic logic. > > The logic of the modes with “& <>t” gives the physical modes, and implies a > quantum logic and some measure, corresponding to the machine’s ignorance on > which computations support her (among an infinity). Recently, I realised > that the existence of this measure exists and can be proved in ZF + some > sufficiently large cardinal. > > The “& p” makes things non definable. > > The “<>t” makes things non provable, which allows the study of the negation > of those modes, and things get subtle and counter-intuitive. > > > >> The first five are related to our physical world: sight, hearing, smell, >> taste, touch. > > Of course, those should be obtained by the particularisation of some of the > modes above, if we want to make this coherent with some school go Buddhism. > The Hinayana, the Mahayana, the tantric, zen have many school, and variants. > Some Buddhists have develop school on logics. It is rather complex. The > Plato/Aristotle divide divides also Buddhism. > > >> >> Then there are three related to our spiritual world. >> >> The sixth cognition is our thinking and emotions. This is where our >> repository of knowledge is located. All the human knowledge of philosophy, >> science, technology, arts belongs to the sixth cognition. This includes >> mental consciousness, sub-consciousness and these related concepts. > > Looks like []p, intellect, mind, ... > > >> >> Then the seventh and eighth senses are uniquely oriental and are near the >> core theory of Buddhism. The eighth sense is easier to explain than the >> seventh. >> >> The eighth sense is the “real-self”, or an inaccurate equivalent of “soul”, >> that’s the constant between incarnations, regardless one’s life takes the >> form of this human or that life being on earth. > > That becomes close to the simplest mode (conceptually), but that the machine > can not defined the “p” mode. That’s Plotinus One :) > > But it might be []p & p (it depends of before or after illumination (“p <-> > []p”). > > You need to take this with some grain of salt (but not the whole salt > shaker!). > > >> >> The seven sense can be roughly said as something between the sixth cognition >> - our day-to-day thinking - and the eighth cognition. The seventh cognition >> enables us to perform all the deep and thorough thinking at the sixth >> cognition level. > > Maybe []p & <>t? It is unclear. > > >> >> Therefore, according to Buddhism teachings, AI may venture into the realm of >> the mental consciousness, but will never be able to reach the seventh and >> eighth cognition. > > Really? > > > >> And that seventh and eight cognition is what distinguishes a life being from >> a non life being. > > The universal machine is born illuminated, in the eight cognition mode, p. > But then attached itself to some universal body/representation/number []p, > and the laws of arithmetic are such that this one put an infinite mess in > Arithmetic, and that is nothing compared to the mess when they met and > multiply. > > I explain elsewhere why, if we assume the minimal amount of mechanism > (Descartes) to make sense of Darwin, and a notion of finite information, + > the Church Turing thesis, the mind body problem becomes a problem of reducing > the “hallucination of matter” from the logic of self-reference. It works. It > is not well known, and it is normal, given that behind the modes, you have > the mood, and the mood today is almost everywhere Aristotelian, with few > exception, since about 1500 years in Occident, 800 years in the Middle-East, > and it is more complex to figure out in India and China. > > Thanks to Gödel and the logicians, the theology of machine is taught to > logicians, but, not many realise, or appreciate, that as a platonic > Pythagorean theory, it is testable (as it contains physics, or its invariant > (for all universal machine) core). > > If interested I give you references, including good books on the mathematics > of self-reference. The mode “[]p & p” is a standard variant of []p in the > literature. > > Bruno > > >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On Aug 16, 2020, at 5:02 AM, Alan Grayson <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Saturday, August 15, 2020 at 10:36:40 PM UTC-6, Beixiao Robert Liu wrote: >>> Well, if the inquiry here concerns consciousness, then the question of >>> whether a human should trust the AI, or whether the AI has the capacity to >>> be trusted by a human, ought to be part of the inquiry, right? The movie >>> listed others elements: compassion, sympathy, etc. I guess I was just using >>> my wife’s off-the-cuff comment as a convenient way to suggest that Caleb >>> might set the wrong threshold in his Turing test; and as a result, he gave >>> a pass to the AI too easily, which later proved fatally wrong. >>> >>> Sorry. Maybe my comment was too flippant. I just don't think Caleb's >>> mistake in trusting the AI relates to whether the AI is conscious. AG >>> >>>> On Aug 15, 2020, at 23:29, Alan Grayson <[email protected] <>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Saturday, August 15, 2020 at 7:54:35 PM UTC-6, Beixiao Robert Liu wrote: >>>> It’s available on YouTube. You could rent it for as little as $4, as long >>>> as you finish viewing it within 2 days once your start playing. >>>> >>>> Thanks for recommending it. I just viewed it. My wife said that it’s >>>> stupid for the boy to trust the AI girl, Ava, so he got what he deserved. >>>> >>>> Too funny! That's hardly the point. AG >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> > On Aug 15, 2020, at 21:26, Russell Standish <[email protected] <>> >>>> > wrote: >>>> > >>>> > Alas not available on Netflix Australia. It'll have to wait until >>>> > if/when I subscribe to Amazon Prime briefly. >>>> > >>>> > I'm also not really prepared to purchase a VPN just to watch other >>>> > countries' Netflix connections, for much the same reason as I only >>>> > subscribe to one streamer - so it might have to wait until if/when I >>>> > do live in a country that has it in the Netflix catalogue. >>>> > >>>> > The tangled web of movie copyright arrangements... Bah! >>>> > >>>> >> On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 02:23:52PM -0700, Alan Grayson wrote: >>>> >> If you haven't viewed it, please do so. It's about the Turing Test, >>>> >> science >>>> >> fiction, but the "special effects" aren't primarily photographic bells >>>> >> and >>>> >> whistles, but the dialogue. the text, the logic of the script. >>>> >> Recently, we >>>> >> have argued about consciousness, what it is, and how we can test for it >>>> >> in the >>>> >> context of AI. I claimed that we could do some superficial surgery to >>>> >> determine >>>> >> whether the subject of the test was a robot or a conscious entity. But >>>> >> this is >>>> >> completely mistaken. All that that would reveal is whether the subject >>>> >> was >>>> >> artificial, not whether it was "conscious". The subject could have been >>>> >> a black >>>> >> box, and still showing signs of what we can't really define; >>>> >> consciousness. I >>>> >> think Ex Machina provides an answer of what we need to look for. Please >>>> >> view it >>>> >> and report back. But do NOT read the plot, say in Wiki. It's a spoiler. >>>> >> AG >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> -- >>>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> >> Groups >>>> >> "Everything List" group. >>>> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> >> an email >>>> >> to [email protected] <>. >>>> >> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/> >>>> >> everything-list/6c3c8eba-542c-45a6-a79f-ca54202fdcc8o%40googlegroups.com >>>> >> <http://40googlegroups.com/>. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > -- >>>> > >>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> > >>>> > Dr Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) >>>> > Principal, High Performance Coders [email protected] <> >>>> > http://www.hpcoders.com.au >>>> > <http://www.hpcoders.com.au/> >>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > -- >>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> > Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> > an email to [email protected] <>. >>>> > To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/20200816012618.GA5850%40zen >>>> > >>>> > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/20200816012618.GA5850%40zen>. >>>> > >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to [email protected] <>. >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/d59348ac-d359-4164-a7e8-45c78bb0e6bbo%40googlegroups.com >>>> >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/d59348ac-d359-4164-a7e8-45c78bb0e6bbo%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to [email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/272bb0f5-9c93-4666-86bc-6c0f5ee0977bo%40googlegroups.com >>> >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/272bb0f5-9c93-4666-86bc-6c0f5ee0977bo%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/8AE61BB8-2895-4E8D-AB93-34B96FD33F41%40gmail.com >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/8AE61BB8-2895-4E8D-AB93-34B96FD33F41%40gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/DF4BFB30-ECC5-46ED-A229-8961AB3BAB37%40ulb.ac.be > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/DF4BFB30-ECC5-46ED-A229-8961AB3BAB37%40ulb.ac.be?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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