On Mon, 18 Jan 2021 at 5:36 pm, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < [email protected]> wrote:
> > > On 1/17/2021 10:00 PM, Pierz Newton-John wrote: > > One needs to mention Frauchiger and Renner’s result here, which makes > rigorous the intuitive “Wigner’s friend” type argument and shows that a > single-world QM is inconsistent, > > > Does it? Seems to me F&R's experiment doesn't realize Wigner's friend. > The measure of the "friend" is not decohered into the environment and so is > reversible. > > https://arxiv.org/pdf/2009.00983.pdf > > Brent > That’s interesting. I have to confess I have not committed the time and effort to understand F&R’s argument rigorously, so my statement was based on what seemed to be a consensus that the argument was valid. I’ll have to roll up my sleeves and study it properly. One thing that strikes me though is that the argument above seems to assume an MWI model of the observer F- bar. She interprets seeing the tails result as her being in that branch of the universal quantum state where the result is tails. But this already assumes a non singular reality does it not? F can’t reason that way in a single reality picture of QM. Am I missing something? > > > given some very broad and sensible-sounding parameters, like “quantum > mechanics describes reality at all scales” and “no superdeterminism”. It > does away with Copenhagen as a respectable solution to QM weirdness, and > forces the question: if you don’t like MWI, what other beloved notion are > you prepared to sacrifice? Because whatever it is, it ain’t gonna be > pretty. I get the feeling AG would just like reality to behave itself and > be sensible. Frauchiger and Renner make it clear it’s too late for that. > > It’s interesting, incidentally, to read Max Born’s letters to Einstein > (Born was my great grandfather). It’s clear he still held a very > conservative view of what was going on and missed the point, all too > horrifyingly apparent to Einstein, that the implications of an unaltered QM > were extremely profound. For Einstein it smacked of an irrational universe > and he viscerally rejected that. Born, like Wile E. Coyote, seemed to be > sailing along unperturbed, oblivious to the fact that the ground was no > longer under his feet. > > On Mon, 18 Jan 2021 at 3:43 pm, Alan Grayson <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> >> >> On Sunday, January 17, 2021 at 11:04:26 AM UTC-7 [email protected] >> wrote: >> >>> On Sun, Jan 17, 2021 at 9:41 AM Alan Grayson <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> *> One of the postulates of the MWI is that anything that CAN happen, >>>> MUST happen.* >>> >>> >>> Yes. >>> >>> * > Are you denying that postulate?* >>> >>> >>> No >>> >>> * > I am just applying it to a horse race. * >>>> >>> >>> And if Many Worlds is correct then there is an Alan Grayson for every >>> horse in that race, and there is an Alan Grayson who saw every one of >>> those horses win. And if Many Worlds is not correct then something even >>> stranger must be. The one thing we know for certain is that whatever >>> quantum interpretation turns out to be true it's going to be weird, very >>> very weird. >>> >> >> Maybe no weirder than collapse of the wf. AG >> >> >>> >>> *> Obviously, a horse race isn't a quantum process,* >>> >>> >>> You say it's obvious that you don't split because you'd feel it if you >>> did, and there were those that said obviously the Earth doesn't move >>> around the sun or move at all because we'd feel it if it did. >>> >>> John K Clark >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the >> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/everything-list/xsl8cSDT4M8/unsubscribe >> . >> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to >> [email protected]. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/477f8322-4192-4910-8c8a-ae3608815fdbn%40googlegroups.com >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/477f8322-4192-4910-8c8a-ae3608815fdbn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CAArMS017iyZQ02v%3DZ-9ojbA2%3DFNx408ctAqO1UQvW9iwBhxaFg%40mail.gmail.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CAArMS017iyZQ02v%3DZ-9ojbA2%3DFNx408ctAqO1UQvW9iwBhxaFg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/everything-list/xsl8cSDT4M8/unsubscribe. > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/06841c55-adaa-9bbc-f1bd-0a97ef25a5b8%40verizon.net > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/06841c55-adaa-9bbc-f1bd-0a97ef25a5b8%40verizon.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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