On 4/11/2022 11:30 PM, smitra wrote:
On 11-04-2022 20:40, Brent Meeker wrote:
On 4/11/2022 12:47 AM, smitra wrote:
On 11-04-2022 09:19, Bruce Kellett wrote:
On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 3:58 PM smitra <smi...@zonnet.nl> wrote:

On 10-04-2022 06:15, Bruce Kellett wrote:

Not relevant, since there is no enclosing reflecting boundary.

Yes there is.

Where is it then?

One can also consider an observation inside the event
horizon of a supermassive black hole. No photons escape from there.

We are not currently inside a supermassive black hole. Besides, you
knowledge of BH physics seems somewhat faulty. Inside the horizon, all
particles move towards the singularity at r = 0 (because that is the
forward direction of time). So there is no reflection off the inside
of the horizon. That is a fanciful (and wrong) idea.

The escaping Hawking radiation is so small that it doesn't contain

And since you are attempting to promote a FAPP argument to an in
principle argument, you also have to consider that the space
is not a perfect vacuum, so photons do not travel at exactly the
of light. This means that in principle one can retrieve the escaping


I don;t think the difference between c, the speed of light in a
vacuum, and the speed of light in outer space is a relevant
consideration -- you still are not going to catch and reverse those IR

That's all FAPP, not in principle. The laws of physics are reversible, it requires a rigorous argument from the fundamental laws of physics to demonstrate that reversing a measurement is impossible. Arguing from a practical situation and pointing to immense difficulties is a FAPP argument.

You seem to think the purpose of physics is to study the consequences
of equations.  If something is impossible to observe, I think the
purpose of physics is to explain why it's impossible.

In physics, when we try to figure out something new, one has to accept that there is incomplete knowledge about it and that in principle a large number of possibilities are in principle possible. But not all possibilities are equally reasonable. We all know how creationists invoke a "God of the gaps". In principle God could have created the universe not so long ago and one can always point to something science has not yet been able to figure out yet.

So, in practice one can always invoke a "God of the gaps" argument against a reasonable hypothesis. This is how Bruce is arguing here in opposition to the MWI. One may oppose the MWI on many reasonable grounds, but Bruce has the habit of invoking gaps that do not even exist, like that QFT is inconsistent with ordinary QM because QFT is manifestly local and he insist that the dynamics of QM must be non-local to account for Bell-type correlations. So, he is invoking a gap that doesn't even exists to argue his point.

Bruce has considered the QFT version of EPR.  That's the interpretation in which all combinations of Alice and Bob meet in the future and almost all combinations somehow are annihilated, leaving only those that are observed.

I think QFT is only an approximate theory /because/ it assumes only local interactions.

Then in case of observations may take the position that observations cannot be reversible. But since our brain can be simulated and you could in principle run the simulation of a quantum computer, that implies that observations can actually be reversible.

Only if your quantum computer never produces an output.

So, the irreversible aspects of observations in the real world have nothing to do with the observations. Just like in the real world there is always friction which affects the motion of objects. True but things can also move in a perfect vacuum.

Now, in previous discussions the argument was made that you can't consider a simulation of observers in a quantum computer because, by definition, measurements must be irreversible. But that definition is can then be argued to be unreasonable. One can argue that even in the real world everything is in principle reversible. But then what about IR photons? Well, that doesn't stand in the way for inn principle reversibility either.

But then this whole argument then strayed into the unreasonable domain, because the physics of what happens on my brain during observations isn't affected by escaping IR photons and it can in principle be simulated to arbitrary accuracy in a fully reversible quantum computer.

I'm afraid you seem very inconsistent.  Earlier you insisted that an analysis had to include M81 and NGC215 as well as Alice, Bob, and instruments.  Now you, you just want to simulate the brains (and not include any IR photons).


You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 

Reply via email to