On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 12:41:03 PM UTC-6 meeke...@gmail.com wrote:

> On 4/14/2022 2:00 PM, George Kahrimanis wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 8:55:48 PM UTC+3 meeke...@gmail.com 
> (Brent) wrote:
> Decoherence has gone part way in solving the when/where/what basis 
>> questions, but only part way.
> As I wrote at the end of my first reply to your message, I share your 
> concern about decoherence but I see the glass as half-full; that is, with a 
> little more subtlety I hope that the matter can be formulated in clear 
> terms.
> Surely collapse is easier to handle as a general concept (except, on the 
> other hand, that it requires new dynamics). I forgot to mention that *my 
> argument for deriving the Born Rule works with collapse, too* -- so it is 
> an alternative to Gleason's theorem.
> Here I define colapse as an irreversible process, violating unitarity of 
> course, and I keep it separate from randomisation. The latter means that 
> each outcome is somehow randomised -- an assumption we can do without.
> *Collapse can also be described in a many-world formulation!* It differs 
> from the no-collapse MWI only in being irreversible. 
> If you can throw away low probability branches, what's to stop you from 
> throwing away all but one?  You've already broken unitary evolution.  If 
> you read Hardy's axiomatization of QM you see that the difference between 
> QM and classical mechanics turns on a single word in Axiom 5 Continuity: 
> There exists a *continuous *reversible transformation on a system between 
> any two pure states of that system.
> My argument in outline is
> 1. assessment that MWI-with-collapse is workable;
> 2. therefore, outcomes of small enough measure can be neglected in 
> practice;
> Yes, I've wondered if a smallest non-zero probability could be defined 
> consistent with the data.
> 3. now Everett's argument can proceed, concluding that the Born Rule is a 
> practically safe assumption (to put it briefly).
> So I have replaced two assumptions of Gleason's theorem, randomisation and 
> non-contextuality, by the assessment of workability only.
> If you don't feel comfortable yet with formulating collapse in a 
> many-world setting, let us also assume randomisation (God plays dice), for 
> the sake of the argument, in a single-world formulation. That is, we ASSUME 
> the existence of probability; then the previous argument just guarantees 
> that this probability follows the Born Rule.
> Assume?  Randomness is well motivated by evidence.  And it's more random 
> than just not knowing some inherent variable, because in the EPR experiment 
> a randomized hidden variable can on explain the QM result if it's non-local.
> Of course I favour the first version of the argument, using the many-world 
> formulation of collapse, to avoid the "God plays dice" nightmare.
> Why this fear of true randomness?  We have all kinds of classical 
> randomness we just attributed to "historical accident".  Would it really 
> make any difference it were due to inherent quantum randomness?  Albrect 
> and Phillips have made an argument that there is quantum randomness even 
> nominally classical dynamics. https://arxiv.org/abs/1212.0953v3

True randomness implies *unintelligibility*; that is, no existing physical 
process for *causing *the results of measurements. AG 

> Brent
> Thanks for the comments so far, because they stirred my thinking and 
> motivated fresh ideas, some of which I hope will prove helpful and worth 
> discussing, if and when they mature.
> George K.
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