On Sunday, April 17, 2022 at 9:16:34 PM UTC-6 meeke...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > On 4/17/2022 6:33 PM, Alan Grayson wrote: > > I was aware of the limitation on *precision* implied by the HUP. I was > addressing whether *simultaneous* measurements are possible despite the > HUP. I think they are possible. > > > The HUP directly refers ideal measurements which are preparations. Each > destructive measurement can simultaneously measure conjugate variables to > arbitrary precision. But repeating the destructive measurements on exactly > the same prepared system will then give a scatter of answers which > satisfies the HUP. > > > But my main point is that acausality is tantamount to unintelligible. IMO, > there's a huge difference between being unable to perfectly predict the > time evolution of a system, and it being uncaused. AG > > > Is there? Even if the unpredicitability is in-principle? What is the > huge difference? > > Brent > So what, in your view, bugged AE about probability in QM? AG > > > On Sunday, April 17, 2022 at 6:19:44 PM UTC-6 meeke...@gmail.com wrote: > >> The authors point out that the Heisenberg uncertainty principle limits >> the accuracy of determining initial conditions even if the physics of >> evolution is perfectly deterministic. >> >> I addressed your issue because you posted it here...as a courtesy. If >> you don't want it addressed...why post it. >> >> Brent >> >> >> On 4/17/2022 4:11 PM, Alan Grayson wrote: >> >> No. I didn't read your original post on this thread. But I see the >> authors assume quantum fluctuations, and therefore deny causalty. You get >> what you pay for. In my example, there surely are *caused* >> probabilities, even if we don't have complete understanding of the initial >> conditions. But why address my issue if a link satisfies you? AG >> >> On Sunday, April 17, 2022 at 4:01:03 PM UTC-6 meeke...@gmail.com wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On 4/17/2022 7:11 AM, Alan Grayson wrote: >>> >>> A simple example of your point is a gas at some temperature and >>> pressure, confined in some volume. For a given particle in the ensemble, we >>> can't determine its exact path because we lack information about its >>> interactions. But if we had that knowledge, we could determine its exact >>> path, and any uncertainties in that information would translate into >>> uncertainties in its path. But inherent randomness in QM is different and >>> probably has nothing to do with the UP. >>> >>> Did you read the paper I cited?: https://arxiv.org/abs/1212.0953v3 >>> >>> Brent >>> >>> For example, for a small uncertainty in position, there is a large >>> uncertainty in velocity, so we *can* get simultaneous measurements of >>> position and velocity, but the latter will manifest large fluctuations for >>> succeeding measurements. Thus, the "inherent randomness" in QM is the >>> assumption that every individual trial or outcome of a measurement is >>> UNcaused; that is, the particular outcome can't be traced to some prior >>> state -- what AE called God playing dice with the universe. AG >>> >>> On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 6:34:51 PM UTC-6 meeke...@gmail.com >>> wrote:; >>> >>>> Consider the converse. When you comprehend some physical evolution, is >>>> it essential that it be deterministic. Every event has many causes, do >>>> you >>>> have to know every one of them to comprehend it? Think of all the things >>>> you would have to say did NOT happen in order that your comprehension be >>>> complete. The way I look at it, we call classical mechanics deterministic >>>> only because *most of the time* there are a few (not a bazillion) >>>> factors we can *approximately determine* in advance, so that an* >>>> almost* certain prediction, *within a range of uncertainty*, is >>>> possible. Even within strict determinism there are at this very moment >>>> gamma rays from distant supernova approaching you and which cannot be >>>> predicted but which might influence your thoughts and instruments. >>>> >>>> Brent >>>> >>>> >>>> On 4/16/2022 5:08 PM, Alan Grayson wrote: >>>> >>>> I think you're fooling yourself if you think a non-determinsitic >>>> process is comprehensible. AG >>>> >>>> On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 5:46:09 PM UTC-6 meeke...@gmail.com >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 4/16/2022 4:24 PM, Alan Grayson wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 5:03:55 PM UTC-6 meeke...@gmail.com >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/16/2022 2:58 PM, Alan Grayson wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 1:44:09 PM UTC-6 meeke...@gmail.com >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/16/2022 8:34 AM, Alan Grayson wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Of course I favour the first version of the argument, using the >>>>>>>> many-world formulation of collapse, to avoid the "God plays dice" >>>>>>>> nightmare. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Why this fear of true randomness? We have all kinds of classical >>>>>>>> randomness we just attributed to "historical accident". Would it >>>>>>>> really >>>>>>>> make any difference it were due to inherent quantum randomness? >>>>>>>> Albrect >>>>>>>> and Phillips have made an argument that there is quantum randomness >>>>>>>> even >>>>>>>> nominally classical dynamics. https://arxiv.org/abs/1212.0953v3 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> True randomness implies *unintelligibility*; that is, no existing >>>>>>> physical process for *causing *the results of measurements. AG >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "It happened at random in accordance with a Poisson process with >>>>>>> rate parameter 0.123" seems perfectly intelligible to me. There is a >>>>>>> physical description of the system with allows you to predict that, >>>>>>> including the value of the rate parameter. It only differs from >>>>>>> deterministic physics in that it doesn't say when the event happens. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I always wonder if people who have this dogmatic rejection of >>>>>>> randomness understand that quantum randomness is very narrow. Planck's >>>>>>> constant is very small and it introduces randomness, but with a >>>>>>> definite >>>>>>> distribution and on certain variables. It's not "anything can happen" >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> it seems some people fear. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brent >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Every single trial is unintelligible. AG >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I find that remark unintelligble. I don't think "intelligble" means >>>>>> what you think it means. >>>>>> >>>>>> Brent >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It means there exists no definable physical process to account for the >>>>> outcome of a single trial. AG >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That's what is usually called "non-deterministic". "Unintelligble" >>>>> means not understandable or incomprehensible. >>>>> >>>>> Brent >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. >>>> >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/f873f226-b8f7-40db-9036-ceb8b31427een%40googlegroups.com >>>> >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/f873f226-b8f7-40db-9036-ceb8b31427een%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>> . >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. >>> >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/2d3b652e-8a5d-4755-962f-52a5d7691f71n%40googlegroups.com >>> >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/2d3b652e-8a5d-4755-962f-52a5d7691f71n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. >> >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/cfc653e0-ddf1-4d17-a1ac-cd6a69ecc209n%40googlegroups.com >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/cfc653e0-ddf1-4d17-a1ac-cd6a69ecc209n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. > > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/7328a59a-777a-4a04-bea6-3cf46e9b1836n%40googlegroups.com > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/7328a59a-777a-4a04-bea6-3cf46e9b1836n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/48a0a13b-0706-4c75-b123-d19c60128f92n%40googlegroups.com.