The authors point out that the Heisenberg uncertainty principle limits
the accuracy of determining initial conditions even if the physics of
evolution is perfectly deterministic.
I addressed your issue because you posted it here...as a courtesy. If
you don't want it addressed...why post it.
Brent
On 4/17/2022 4:11 PM, Alan Grayson wrote:
No. I didn't read your original post on this thread. But I see the
authors assume quantum fluctuations, and therefore deny causalty. You
get what you pay for. In my example, there surely are *caused*
probabilities, even if we don't have complete understanding of the
initial conditions. But why address my issue if a link satisfies you? AG
On Sunday, April 17, 2022 at 4:01:03 PM UTC-6 meeke...@gmail.com wrote:
On 4/17/2022 7:11 AM, Alan Grayson wrote:
A simple example of your point is a gas at some temperature and
pressure, confined in some volume. For a given particle in the
ensemble, we can't determine its exact path because we lack
information about its interactions. But if we had that knowledge,
we could determine its exact path, and any uncertainties in that
information would translate into uncertainties in its path. But
inherent randomness in QM is different and probably has nothing
to do with the UP.
Did you read the paper I cited?: https://arxiv.org/abs/1212.0953v3
Brent
For example, for a small uncertainty in position, there is a
large uncertainty in velocity, so we *can* get simultaneous
measurements of position and velocity, but the latter will
manifest large fluctuations for succeeding measurements. Thus,
the "inherent randomness" in QM is the assumption that every
individual trial or outcome of a measurement is UNcaused; that
is, the particular outcome can't be traced to some prior state --
what AE called God playing dice with the universe. AG
On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 6:34:51 PM UTC-6
meeke...@gmail.com wrote:;
Consider the converse. When you comprehend some physical
evolution, is it essential that it be deterministic. Every
event has many causes, do you have to know every one of them
to comprehend it? Think of all the things you would have to
say did NOT happen in order that your comprehension be
complete. The way I look at it, we call classical mechanics
deterministic only because /most of the time/ there are a few
(not a bazillion) factors we can /approximately determine/ in
advance, so that an/almost/ certain prediction, /within a
range of uncertainty/, is possible. Even within strict
determinism there are at this very moment gamma rays from
distant supernova approaching you and which cannot be
predicted but which might influence your thoughts and
instruments.
Brent
On 4/16/2022 5:08 PM, Alan Grayson wrote:
I think you're fooling yourself if you think a
non-determinsitic process is comprehensible. AG
On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 5:46:09 PM UTC-6
meeke...@gmail.com wrote:
On 4/16/2022 4:24 PM, Alan Grayson wrote:
On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 5:03:55 PM UTC-6
meeke...@gmail.com wrote:
On 4/16/2022 2:58 PM, Alan Grayson wrote:
On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 1:44:09 PM UTC-6
meeke...@gmail.com wrote:
On 4/16/2022 8:34 AM, Alan Grayson wrote:
Of course I favour the first version of
the argument, using the many-world
formulation of collapse, to avoid the
"God plays dice" nightmare.
Why this fear of true randomness? We
have all kinds of classical randomness we
just attributed to "historical
accident". Would it really make any
difference it were due to inherent
quantum randomness? Albrect and Phillips
have made an argument that there is
quantum randomness even nominally
classical dynamics.
https://arxiv.org/abs/1212.0953v3
True randomness implies *unintelligibility*;
that is, no existing physical process for
*causing *the results of measurements. AG
"It happened at random in accordance with a
Poisson process with rate parameter 0.123"
seems perfectly intelligible to me. There is
a physical description of the system with
allows you to predict that, including the
value of the rate parameter. It only differs
from deterministic physics in that it doesn't
say when the event happens.
I always wonder if people who have this
dogmatic rejection of randomness understand
that quantum randomness is very narrow.
Planck's constant is very small and it
introduces randomness, but with a definite
distribution and on certain variables. It's
not "anything can happen" as it seems some
people fear.
Brent
Every single trial is unintelligible. AG
I find that remark unintelligble. I don't think
"intelligble" means what you think it means.
Brent
It means there exists no definable physical process to
account for the outcome of a single trial. AG
That's what is usually called "non-deterministic".
"Unintelligble" means not understandable or
incomprehensible.
Brent
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the
Google Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails
from it, send an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/f873f226-b8f7-40db-9036-ceb8b31427een%40googlegroups.com
<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/f873f226-b8f7-40db-9036-ceb8b31427een%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the
Google Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/2d3b652e-8a5d-4755-962f-52a5d7691f71n%40googlegroups.com
<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/2d3b652e-8a5d-4755-962f-52a5d7691f71n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/cfc653e0-ddf1-4d17-a1ac-cd6a69ecc209n%40googlegroups.com
<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/cfc653e0-ddf1-4d17-a1ac-cd6a69ecc209n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/9b09523b-4c79-8d21-df7a-e5d057f2490a%40gmail.com.
