If you're not aware of what you can and cannot prove, your logic is going to be flawed, or worse, you will sound like a religious nut.
On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 9:19 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < [email protected]> wrote: > @Terren. Is not a matter of proving. Is a matter of you becoming conscious > of consciousness. Is a matter of you properly understanding what the > concepts involved mean. For example, in your understanding, what does "to > exist" mean ? > > On Monday, 6 January 2025 at 16:17:57 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: > >> Believe it or not, I'm sympathetic to that kind of theory of reality. >> It's not far from what I personally believe. >> >> But at the end of the day, you cannot prove it. Can you admit that? >> >> On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 9:13 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> @Terren. You don't understand what you are. You are God. Once you >>> understand why you are God, you also understand why only you exists. It has >>> to do with what "to exist" means. "To exists" means to have >>> form/meaning/quality. As such, only qualia exist, because "qualia" is just >>> a synonymous for "existence". And qualia are the way in which you as God >>> understand yourself. That's what reality is: is the process through which >>> God knows itself. As such, there can be nothing else. >>> >>> On Monday, 6 January 2025 at 16:06:45 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>> >>>> I exist, consciousness exists. There's no question about that, for me. >>>> >>>> What is unprovable is the claim "nothing else exists except >>>> consciousness". >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 8:08 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> @Terren. So you're not sure if you exist ? >>>>> >>>>> On Monday, 6 January 2025 at 03:07:17 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> The claim that "consciousness is all that exists" is metaphysics. You >>>>>> cannot prove that, but that doesn't stop you from saying things like >>>>>> "energy doesn't exist" as if it were a fact. >>>>>> >>>>>> The ultimate nature of reality is a mystery. I don't put much stock >>>>>> in people who speak in certainties about such things. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Jan 5, 2025 at 3:08 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> @Terren. What metaphysics ? Your existence is metaphysics ? Or is a >>>>>>> matter of obvious fact ? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sunday, 5 January 2025 at 19:18:21 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Prove that you admit everything. Admit that your assertion that >>>>>>>> *consciousness >>>>>>>> is all that exists* is metaphysical - it cannot be proved. The >>>>>>>> same is true of the claim that matter and energy are all that exists. >>>>>>>> Both >>>>>>>> are metaphysical statements. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sun, Jan 5, 2025 at 12:08 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I always admit everything. It seems to you that I don't because I >>>>>>>>> keep saying "Consciousness is all there is". While that sentence is >>>>>>>>> true, >>>>>>>>> so while that proves with 100% certainty that there is no matter, it >>>>>>>>> still >>>>>>>>> doesn't give the full details of consciousness. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sunday, 5 January 2025 at 18:21:13 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think that's the first time you've ever admitted you don't >>>>>>>>>> understand something fully. I recommend you keep going in that >>>>>>>>>> direction. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jan 5, 2025 at 11:05 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything >>>>>>>>>> List <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I also said: "if we were to understand consciousness fully, then >>>>>>>>>>> we will know for sure what to expect after death." As of today, we >>>>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>>>> understand consciousness fully. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, 5 January 2025 at 16:54:49 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> When you said this: "And in case we would expect happiness, >>>>>>>>>>>> then we will even stop finding any cure for cancer. We will >>>>>>>>>>>> celebrate >>>>>>>>>>>> cancer." So instead of celebrating cancer, why not skip the >>>>>>>>>>>> painful parts? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 4, 2025 at 3:29:59 PM UTC-5 Cosmin Visan >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Where did I say that the next life will be better ? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 4 January 2025 at 22:09:01 UTC+2 Terren Suydam >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Serious question - what's stopping you from killing yourself >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and speeding up the transition to happiness? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 4, 2025 at 3:04 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything >>>>>>>>>>>>>> List <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm millionaire, why would I need a job ? Also, if we were >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to understand consciousness fully, then we will know for sure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expect after death. And in case we would expect happiness, then >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even stop finding any cure for cancer. We will celebrate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cancer. All of our >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> current decisions are made based on incomplete knowledge of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> truth. As >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such, we make the decisions based on what we imagine reality to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be, not on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what it actually is. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 4 January 2025 at 21:37:03 UTC+2 Alan Grayson >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 4, 2025 at 12:30:07 PM UTC-7 Cosmin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It depends what kind of person you are. If you are a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> depressed person, curing you of cancer will not do any good. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contrary, if you would have died you would havd gotten a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chance at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> happiness in the next life. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *You have to be right. Stop your BS, assuming you know more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than you actually do, or get a job, or jerkoff, but no more of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stupidity. AG * >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 4 January 2025 at 21:06:51 UTC+2 Alan Grayson >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 4, 2025 at 11:27:28 AM UTC-7 Cosmin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I just opened a topic a while back about the definition of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the word "useful" that you keep abusing. Let's remind you: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Useful = whatever increases happiness. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Useless = whatever doesn't increase happiness. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My philosophy, I guarantee you 100%, increases happiness, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so is useful. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Getting cured of cancer might still let you depressed, so >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cancer cure is useless. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *You can't be very conscious and make such a hugely stupid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> comment. Don't ya think that being cured of cancer is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> immensely happier >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than succumbing to it? AG* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 4 January 2025 at 19:59:29 UTC+2 Alan Grayson >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 4, 2025 at 10:44:42 AM UTC-7 Alan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Grayson wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 4, 2025 at 9:53:59 AM UTC-7 Cosmin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How do you expect you can properly fix a car if you don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know how it function ? You just do guesswork, you give it a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> few kicks and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maybe it starts. This is how present-day science works given >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't work based on fundamentals, namely based on the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> working of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consciousness. Sure, you can keep doing research this way: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kick it till it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> works. And you might save a few lives. But if you were start >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fundamentals, then you would know exactly what you were doing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and you will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> save 8 billion lives. Not that it would matter at that point, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> given that at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that level of development we will manipulate consciousness to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such a degree >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that we will not even need bodies anymore. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *About 60 years ago I met a fellow with your philosophy, a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Master of Yoga, an adept at "Traditional Science", author of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> several books, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who claimed with great authority that the problem of cancer >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> had been >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "solved". He never got cancer but died of a heart failure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around age 80 in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2008. AG* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *My point is that people with your philosophy often make >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> huge claims, with rarely anything practical forthcoming. For >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> example, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> during the Covid pandemic, a company named Moderna produced a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vaccine in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> record time, using knowledge of DNA, viruses, etc. They >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> couldn't have done >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that without the discovery of DNA, which no doubt required by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the invention >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the Electron Microscope. Talk is cheap. We can do great >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absence of your vague philosophy. Can you actually DO >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something useful, or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is it all talk? AG * >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 4 January 2025 at 17:17:26 UTC+2 Alan Grayson >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 4, 2025 at 8:11:38 AM UTC-7 Cosmin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> @Alan. You can do cancer research. But since that research >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not based on fundamental ideas about reality, it will be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just guesswork: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just try 1000 different drugs and cross fingers that one might >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Instead, if people would actually understand consciousness, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they would cure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cancer in 1 week. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *I might believe that if you were able to contribute >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ANYTHING to ANY problem discussed here. All I read are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> grandiose claims >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with nothing practical forthcoming. AG* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 4 January 2025 at 17:08:48 UTC+2 Alan Grayson >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 4, 2025 at 8:01:18 AM UTC-7 Cosmin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can continue cancer research. But is just like playing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> World of Warcraft in order to get the legendary gear. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *If you get cancer, which is not my wish, you can tell your >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doctor that the pain and suffering is purely imaginary, not to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mention the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible early termination of your life. Now, do us all a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> favor and cease >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> posting like a fool. AG * >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 4 January 2025 at 16:48:23 UTC+2 John Clark >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *You didn't answer my question. Should cancer research be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stopped, and if not why not? * >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 4, 2025 at 9:35 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everything List <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You make the classical confusion between epistemology and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ontology. Only because you can watch a movie with Spider-Man >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (epistemology), it doesn't follow that Spider-Man exists >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (ontology). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 4 January 2025 at 15:39:31 UTC+2 John Clark >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 4, 2025 at 8:04 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everything List <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *>>the question of list moderation would not be relevant at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this time if one very recent list member didn't think page >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> after page of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nothing but "(:>)" characters was an intelligent rebuttal, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and ALL scientific questions of the form "what is the nature >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of X?" can be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answered by simply saying "X does not exist".* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *> Of course, given that consciousness is all there is. Why >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would you waste time talking about things that don't exist ?* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *So there's no point in doing cancer research because >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cancer does not exist? Do I have that right? * >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * John K Clark See what's on my new list at Extropolis >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion visit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/ce0f45cd-428a-4658-9611-8491375412dfn%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/ce0f45cd-428a-4658-9611-8491375412dfn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion visit >>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/f319c6fd-59c0-474d-a489-14eb3361024en%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/f319c6fd-59c0-474d-a489-14eb3361024en%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To view this discussion visit >>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/b8898e6a-2803-42c6-9a2b-dfdc537b5d0en%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/b8898e6a-2803-42c6-9a2b-dfdc537b5d0en%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> >>>>>> To view this discussion visit >>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/a8b9c897-3fd8-4840-9420-628ee48e7bacn%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/a8b9c897-3fd8-4840-9420-628ee48e7bacn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> >>>> To view this discussion visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/eca484a1-d703-470a-a6b0-ac7edca5b396n%40googlegroups.com >>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/eca484a1-d703-470a-a6b0-ac7edca5b396n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> >> To view this discussion visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/44642e49-a3e8-4e6c-8964-cb28acb77435n%40googlegroups.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/44642e49-a3e8-4e6c-8964-cb28acb77435n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/9b7fbeea-913b-49fc-82be-bda8a4aa448bn%40googlegroups.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/9b7fbeea-913b-49fc-82be-bda8a4aa448bn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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