On Tue, 2003-06-03 at 08:34, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > ** Lyvim Xaphir (Dienstag, 3. Juni 2003 03:23)
> You have to substract the "problems" being caused by updating the whole > system. As is shown everywhere on in the forums updating a whole system > is a risky thing. There were not so many distro related problems with > fresh installs. Many postings I read came from users who where unable > to install the nvidia drivers. Most of that was related to faults by > the users themselves. Yes, I think you are saying that you should isolate things as much as possible. This is, you see, exactly why I have refrained from making hardware changes, so that if something like this did occur, then my troubleshooting task would be reduced to a mere billion or so variables. In seriousness, I think I know what you are saying, and it seems to be the same thing I am saying, which is that in troubleshooting you isolate things by identifying known good elements, thereby partitioning off the areas where problems are. That is precisely what I have been attempting to do here. But the complexity of the thing is still daunting, since all the apps and the distro itself are different, and there seems to be no rhyme or reason to the lockups. My subconsious seems to think that this may be a driver issue; that seems a good place to start checking. One good thing is that I haven't had any lockups or Xfree vaporizations today. :) > Hmm, I don't care for stopwatches or benchmarks because I don't have to > work with benchmarks everyday but with my system. For that I have the > overall impression of more speed. It is extremely unreliable to rely on impressions rather than reality; the two must always be separated in order to gain a true image of the scenario in question. That is if you are truly serious about getting an honest evaluation. Separating impressions from reality is what benchmarks are all about. Otherwise, you've got an emotional evaluation, and that is never reliable when you've got an investment at stake. Timing performance with a watchpiece takes the emotion and unreliability out of the equation and gives you an honest, true result. Which is what you want if you are interested in the truth. > > is basically a statement that says the majority of Club members have > > no voice at those times when it really matters, or when it could be > > proven that their club dollars do actually buy a voice in LMXX > > architecture. In this case the money (silver, standard or otherwise) > > did not buy a voice. > > I already pointed out that the club money did *buy* a voice. I already > pointed out that the voting system was always presented as a suggestion > pool for the developpers. A majority of voices not heard is the same as a majority of voices not purchased. > To make it clear: If the majority of members who actually voted did > recommend something then the developpers would try to do this. But if > the developpers would have a reason to leave it out they would do that. > The final contents of the distribution was always the developper's > call. Which in a democratic system, such as supposedly we are in here, can be called to question, just as you and I call each other to question in this diatribe. There is nothing wrong with calling a Mandrake decision out on the mat, as I do here, since they put their pants on every day just like I do, and the bathroom probably stinks when they get through with it, just like everybody else. I question the decision, I doubt the rationale, I don't take it at face value, I value the rights of the Club members because they paid, I don't take it for granted that we will get a fair shake. And in this case, I don't think the guys *did* get a fair shake. It smells elitist, it feels elitist, and it looks elitist, so I am going to call it elitist. <<<<<<Inserted Paragraph>>>>>>>>> > I think you have a wrong perception of the club altogether. The club is > *not* a part of the community which could dictate MandrakeSoft what to > do. The club can make suggestions. If those suggestions get the OK from > developper's side then the suggestion will be taken. If not, then not. > As simple as that. It was never said that the club members could demand > something being done. Members can demand whatever the hell they want to demand, it's their right, which they paid for, btw. Now wether Mandrakesoft listens to them or not, that's the real issue and the real thing that's being questioned here cause that is what determines the true value of your club dollars. > > Some are bothered, some are not. The polls make all that academic > > and not useful to the crux of the issue. > There is something to Anne's point of view to that: How many members did > really vote against the new system compared to the overall number of > members? As it is in most cases, I guess most of the members who did > not like the new system voted against it. But also I'm sure that most > of the members who did not care or accepted the new system did not vote > at all. > > This makes a different picture, right. What would you like me to say? All I can tell you is that the voting system is working as it should be but that it was not recognized as it should have been. Out of 12 or more pages of votes, in both the 9.0 and 9.1, the rpmdrake polls were ON PAGE ONE. There's no way on God's green earth that you can consider that trivial. 9.0 gathered well over 360 votes, maybe 400 or more, if memory serves. Before it was over I think this was *both* 9.0 and 9.1 polls. If the *new* rpmdrake did not garner enough votes to make it off the back page, then that means the neutrals were content to see it go either way, which once again brings me back to the original point concerning this, which is that this is academic. > > > To me it is the the REAL world of distros, in which people need to do > > work, and has already demonstrably succeeded in the past with LM8X, > > so there's no reason it can't happen again. > > There were always releases which were better than others. And there were > always releases which were worse than others. Pretty much, but this doesn't address the talking point of using already compiled wisdom for production of future distros (as opposed to tossing it out the door), which was the original point here. > > > > It is something no commercial orientated company can go. > > > > I don't really know what "something no commercial orientated company > > can go" means. Can you revise your grammar a bit? > > Sorry, last word had to be 'do' instead of 'go'. Does that make more > sense? Please have mercy, English is not my native language. I apologize. > I tried to say that no commercial company, a company which wants to earn > money, can keep a distribution on hold until the very last bit of > possible unstability was checked. This is only possible for > not-commercial communities like Debian. For Debian it is totally > unimportant when the next release will come. All you can hear from them > is: "It's ready when it's ready." > A business company cannot do that. They have to meet deadlines, they > have to make arrangements for production and printing, not to mention > the logistics. And they have to produce releases inside a time frame to > stay in business. Agreed to all you said; what's missing is the wants and desires of the users. Without those being addressed you have stymied enthusiasm, disgruntled attitudes, and a general feeling of malaise with regard to the distro, when you could as easily be generating good will by letting the paying members know (with tangible results) that their statements and votes count. Historically Mandrake has been slanted towards the realm of the user, which is why it has been getting the thumbs up. Recent events have been a departure from that as users have let the company know more directly what they want (to no effect). Paying users talking directly to the company should be considered a blessing and an asset, not an inconvenience. This distinction will be the true measure of wether they stay in business or not. Because it is the *members* that are giving their time and money to the product in order to support the company, and it is the members who will tell others wether their votes count or not, and therefore it is the members who will ultimately decide wether more members should join the club or not. Consequently there is a direct relationship to the relevance of the polls to the profitability of the Mandrakeclub. So when a major front page poll goes a certain way, it should be addressed IMMEDIATELY by the developers in order to demonstrate RELEVANCE of the members and their monetary contributions. Otherwise, there *is no* relevance and thus questionable purpose in membership. > > I never presented a solution since it is the problem I have and not > > the solution. If I had the solution I would have never presented the > > problem. What information I have on this situation has been > > presented. So if you're telling me I'm not supposed to report > > problems on a support mailing list, ... > > I understand your frustration because I'm also looking for a solution to > a major problem with my PDA. You may have misunderstood me. I tried to > say that calling the 9.1 release unstable and calling the way > MandrakeSoft did it unprofessional is no solution to your problems. I attempted to understand what you said; however I have never mentioned the word "unprofessional" ever as far as I know. I have merely called into question the wisdom of migrating en masse from a working distro version into an unknown that old timers have had issues with on this list. If you are using a production distro for productivity and work, migration IMO is probably not the best move right now. On the other hand, if you have time to experiment and are just curious, I think it should be done. A majority of users fall into the latter category anyway. > > ...then I'm just going to file 13 > > that suggestion with the production bug report info you provided > > Sorry, I don't understand the meaning of this last sentence. What does > "file 13" mean? And which info for which production bug report did I > provide? Or did I get the whole meaning wrong? > > wobo Bugzilla was your suggestion for production bug reports. File 13 is the trash can. ;) It's probably just a puritanical American thing. <g> --LX -- ������������������������������������������������ Kernel 2.4.21-0.13mdk Linux Mandrake 9.1 Enlightenment-0.16.5-12mdk Evolution 1.2.4-1.1mdk Linux User #268899 http://counter.li.org/ ������������������������������������������������
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