On Tue, 2003-06-03 at 09:09, Vincent Danen wrote:
> On Mon Jun 02, 2003 at 09:23:36PM -0400, Lyvim Xaphir wrote:
> 
> [...]
> > >  I have 
> > > just the opposite experience. To me 9.1 compared to 8.2 is sleek and 
> > > fast (run on the same hardware so I can compare).
> > > I've started to use Mandrake Linux with version 5.3 and I see a straight 
> > > line of improvement, well, if you scratch 7.0 which was a piece of crap 
> > > IMHO.
> > 
> > What do your benchmarks say, or have you run any?  FYI the hardware
> > here  is identical to the LM82 days, as I have previously stated.  As
> > are the names of the apps.  Same app names, same hardware, different
> > distro.
> 
> Same app names, different apps.  AFAIK, there is nothing that is exactly the
> same as 8.2, be it KDE (KDE2 vs. KDE3), GNOME (GNOME1.4 vs. GNOME2), the
> kernel, and pretty much everything else included in the box.  *Everything*
> has been upgraded between 8.2 and 9.1, so just because, for example, jpilot
> was included in both, doesn't mean that jpilot hasn't changed and could, in
> itself, be slower (nevermind outside interference from other components/libs
> that have changed).

Of course the internals of individual rpms change... but this has no
affect during the upgrade.  This is the expected. It's why you upgrade.
It's rather when say Foo.rpm is replaced by a new program called bar
Bar.rpm has in it's obsoletes that it obsoletes previous versions of
itself.  Not foo.  So now you have two programs foo and bar competing
for the same event.  End result is a hosed system. Normally if you are
only moving 1 level (say 9.0 to 9.1) they have in the rpm an obsoletes
and or scripts that handle the problem (The encountered it in cooker and
solved it there.)  But when going from say 8.2 to 9.1 that interim step
is missing. Since from 9.0 to 9.1 the obsoletes wasn't needed.  Being an
extreme masochist I've done it both ways by jumping and by a smooth
progression.  Jumping == hosed.  Smooth == minor problems if any at
all.   
> 
> (Disclaimer: I don't actually use jpilot; it just popped in my head).
> 
> You have to understand that they are two completely different OS's...
> compilers have changed, glibc has changed, etc.  That impacts a lot of
> stuff.
> 
> We also can't go back to the glibc from 8.2 (if, for example, that's where
> our speed loss came from) because we would be obsoleting ourselves before we
> even released the product.  All the newer commercial apps are being compiled
> against the newer glibc, so we have to keep up to speed with that.

Working for a commercial company that does Linux stuff.  Actually we
tend to go with 2.96 for the moment.... Why?  The consumer install base
is still 80% or better 2.96  Apps compiled with 2.96 run on 3.2x (or
greater) but the other way around doesn't work.   Generally in order to
be commercially successful you need to be slightly behind the curve on
things of this nature.  (We are finalizing a major contract with one of
the nations largest companies ... they are in the process of moving from
RH6.2 to 7.3 ..... why 7.3 is stable...and a 6.2 to 7.3 upgrade is a
smoother progression.)
 
> The same goes for other components.
> 
> Now, I can't honestly say if one is faster than the other as I ran 8.2 on a
> single CPU Athlon 950 whereas I am now using a dual CPU Athlon 1600.  So 9.1
> feels miles faster, but that's due to the hardware more than anything else
> I'm sure.  =)

9.1 is slower (in terms of startup)... but it's also more capable.
(benchmarks not available... the company that did this charges money for
their effort sorry.)  It's a tradeoff.  Note.  It's not so much that MDK
is building a slower OS but rather that the configuration that is the
most popular (X with KDE or GNOME) is noticeably slower.  IF however I
compare Windowmaker or ICE on 9.1 to to 8.2 with the exception of the
broken ICE in 9.1 (it can be fixed..) The numbers flatten out
considerably. (again I wish I could give you the numbers but it's an NDA
thing.) This holds true across the board from RH to SuSe to MDK....  One
thing I have noticed is that from Lilo to DM (xdm kdm etc) is much
quicker in 9.1 than in 8.2.  Part of that I think comes from some
improvements in the god awful, spaghetti code, sysV init system. (from
bootprompt to dm on FreeBSD 5 is 3.5 seconds on the same box from Lilo
to dm is 15 seconds. My timed average over 5 boots each, from full power
down. Trust me.. you don't read the screen when FreeBSD boots.) 

James



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