--- Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > --- In [email protected], Peter Sutphen > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Much of these metal gymnastics regarding > enlightenment > > and suffering come about because of a foundational > > misconception regarding enlightenment that > necessarily > > must come about when understood within the > constructs > > of waking state. The "reason" why there is no > > suffering in enlightenment is that there is no > > individuality there to suffer. Pain occurs, but > there > > is nobody home to suffer. Usually this is followed > up > > with, so an enlightened person feels no pain? The > > question is based on an individuality being > > enlightened. This is incorrect. There is no > > enlightenment for the ego. "You" don't get > > enlightened. > > -Peter > > > > Pain is an experience that comes with identification > as the body. > Sensation has to do with the senses which are > functions of nature. > There are senses but they are not you, they are like > distinct > operating systems that the individual awareness uses > as the > interface between manifest and unmanifest. Any > person feels pain to > the degree that they "believe" they are the body. > The question is, > just what "level" of awareness is considered to be > enlightened? Is > it a state where no personal self is experienced, is > it a state > where the self is always seen as separate from > activity? Is it a > state where all experiences "as" a body cease to > exist? Is -Peter > enlightened? Is MMY enlightened? Is Guru Dev > enlightened? Is > everyone enlightened to some degree or is there a > boundary that one > must cross to first have total enlightenment, or any > degree of > enlightenment? > > So many questions that haven't yet been answered. > > Rick Carlstrom Yes, time for cookies and milk to help relax the mind. There are no answers until the experience is present. Then it's obvious about suffering. There is no suffering when there's no "you" to experience the pain (emotional or physical). I'm sure when Krishna got shot with an arrow in the foot, he hopped around yelling the sanskrit equivalent of "Oh shit does that hurt!" But he didn't suffer one wit. -Peter (scatologically challenged) > > > > --- Patrick Gillam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Comments interleaved below. > > > > > > Bob Brigante wrote: > > > > > > > > the experience of disease or any other > traumatic > > > event > > > > is completely different for the enlightened > person > > > (an actually > > > > enlightened person, one hastens to add, not a > > > Fairfield Life list > > > > enlightened person) than for the ignorant > person. > > > ... > > > > the effect [of trauma to the body] would be > > > meaningless > > > > on an enlightened person. > > > > > > Bob, you distinguish between a Fairfield Life > > > enlightened person and an "actually" > > > enlightened person, but at least one Fairfield > Life > > > enlightened person is describing his > > > experiences in just the terms you describe above > -- > > > that trauma doesn't affect him. > > > See Tom Traynor's descriptions of dealing with > > > physical pain. > > > > > > > A world full of > > > > enlightened people would certainly not see the > > > horrible toll of > > > > epidemics like smallpox, which took ~300 > million > > > lives just in the > > > > 20th century -- the tendency would be toward > > > perfect health, > > > > reflecting the harmonious way of life of the > > > enlightened: > > > > > > I don't see how a tendency toward perfect health > > > necessarily follows from enlightened > > > people being unaffected by trauma or disease. On > one > > > hand, you're saying (and I > > > agree) that bodily hurts can't touch enlightened > > > people because they are not their > > > bodies. Then you say the bodily hurts won't > happen > > > in the first place. Am I > > > misreading you to assume a cause-and-effect > > > relationship in your writing? > > > > > > - Patrick Gillam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To subscribe, send a message to: > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Or go to: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ > > > and click 'Join This Group!' > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > To subscribe, send a message to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Or go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ > and click 'Join This Group!' > Yahoo! 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