--- In [email protected], "Irmeli Mattsson" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In [email protected], TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
. . .
> > In his very traditional view, the "crap"
> > is related to states of attention.  A certain level of
> > "internal crap" is just how one sees things *from* a
> > certain state of attention.  His view was that it's
> > impossible to "work through" the crap of that state of
> > attention because there is an infinite amount of it.
> > Focusing on the crap is like turning on a faucet that
> > is fed by an infinite lake of that particular brand of
> > crap.  No matter how much of it you "work through" as
> > it flows through the faucet, there is always more.
> > 
> > In other words, you could convince yourself that you've
> > "worked through" all the anger that you've got inside
> > you, and be free from it for some time.  But the minute
> > you allow your mind to shift back into state of attention
> > in which anger is an attribute, bing! there is anger 
> > again.
. . .
> 
> ****
> I see this to be a dualistic understanding. And it is very typical 
> to the eastern traditions. This is also the weak spot of many of 
> those traditions. Certain emotions like fear and anger are labelled 
> as negative. 

Having gotten to know this gentleman, I can assure you
that this is not the case at all.  Fear was "labeled"
as no more inherently "negative" than bliss was "labeled"
"positive."  It's not on that level at all, since neither
of these emotions/states of mind really exist.

The judgment is purely about the karmic effect of indulging
in these emotions.  Indulging in anger and fear brings the
perceiver down and creates negative karma, that which 
lengthens the process of realization.  Indulging in compas-
sion and love uplifts, and shortens the process of real-
ization.  Purely pragmatic, with no moral judgment involved
at all.

> There are ideals that in an awakened state you don't anymore
> have those emotions. 

Not in this particular tradition.  One *continues* to exper-
ience these emotions.  One simply has developed the control
not to have to indulge in them.

> Ingenious techniques have been developed to
> disconnect oneself from those emotions. Those emotions are thrown 
> out of perception somewhere into the collective energy soup for some
> other, maybe somewhat weaker people to carry and handle the best 
> they can. And this is called creating peace!!!

Yours is a perfectly valid POV, but I can assure you that it
is not the POV of the teacher I mention.  ALL possible emotions
are present at ALL times; which one or ones you choose to 
indulge in is up to you.  This tradition would very much 
disagree with Maharishi's "unstressing" theory, that when an
emotion becomes predominant, it is a result of something being
worked through or being released, and one has no control over
it; thata one is basically a victim to the emotional state until 
it passes.

The Tibetan view is very different.  There is NO state of 
attention that one is "victim" to.  One ALWAYS has a choice.
That is what free will is ABOUT.  Preferring one state of
attention to another doesn't add to the "collective energy
soup."  It can't.  All of these emotions are always there at
all times, in infinite amounts.  So are all the "positive"
emotions, in equally infinite amounts.  All one is doing is
making a choice as to which to focus on and give expression
to and allow to generate karma.

> Fear and anger (fury) are very important emotions for life to 
> sustain itself. You cannot live without them, you can only 
> disconnect your conscious mind from those emotions and push them 
> to your subconsciousness  or to the collective consciousness to 
> be expressed by others, often not too constructively.

That is a very Western POV, and possibly valid.  I am presenting
a different POV.  I'm not trying to sell it, merely to present it.

> Fear warns of danger, anger helps us to put legitimate limits, so 
> that others cannot use us. 

And both produce karma.  The Tibetan view is that we, as perceivers
and actors, are in charge of what karma we wish to produce.  We
are not slaves to which emotion is predominant at any given time,
and have a clear choice as to the state of attention we bring to
any situation, and thus a choice as to the karma our thoughts
and actions produce in that situation.

> These are important functions. We must just learn to use them 
> constructively.

That's one way of seeing things.  I am merely presenting another.

Unc







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