Rory:
Curtis, of course -- can tell with such utter
> > > certainty that my entire spiritual life has been phony.
>From another post:
...Now it appears you may somewhat agree with
> Curtis, who saw me as a Neurolinguistic-programming, form-running
> charlatan.
Me:
I wanted to drop in to comment on the idea that I think of Rory as a phony or a
charlatan. I do not. My view of people who have the kind of experiences that
Rory has shared is more nuanced than that.
My current perspective involves how our brains communicate within itself, and
how some wires get crossed (think synesthesia between senses as an example,
hearing colors). My current belief is that this can result in experiencing
subjective experiences as if they are as as compelling as our external reality.
I am not making a case for this being a defect, because it can be a source for
profound creativity. So let's take Rory as charlatan off my table. I believe he
is sincere from the limited contact I have had with him.
But, just as with Maharishi, that doesn't mean that I hold his epistemological
conclusions as valid. I do not. My question is about how we deal with this kind
of subjective knowledge. I am skeptical that it provides an insight into
"reality" that bypasses any of our other methods of verification of ideas which
may or may not include the methods of science. I rate all our subjective
experiences the same as any other hypothesis that needs further study taking
into account the human tendency to conflate our enthusiasm for an idea for the
likelihood that it is true. We all suck at this as a natural tendency, myself
included.
As for the language form used, my point concerned the use of language that is
coming from a trance state and is meant to shift the state of the listener from
sensory based to internal connections based. This is how poetry and hypnosis
works. I consider my ability to ride this wave and to generate these waves of
language myself to be at the center of my creative ability with language, so it
is not a negative on its face.
The problems I see comes when we confuse this kind of language with the style
we use to convey concrete meaning. That causes problems when the person using
this language form claims to be telling us about how reality really is. (I'm
looking at you immolated Maharishi.) This type of language was described by
Grinder and Bandler the founders of NLP when they did their modeling of the
hypnotherapist Milton Erickson and their perspective has influenced my own
about how this language form works. The rest comes from my own experiences
teaching TM and then doing NLP therapy for people after leaving TM as well as
an analysis of my own creative songwriting process.
So what is the difference between when Bob Dylan does this and when a
"spiritual" teacher does it? When you ask Bob Dylan what it "means" he says, I
don't know, that is up to you. Figurative language is a launching pad for
internal abstract thought. When you ask a spiritual master what he "means" he
might tell you that when you are in his state of consciousness you will fully
understand. I reject the many imbedded premises in this statement. Would Rory
answer this way? I don't know, I forget most of what I read from him when we
were interacting here. My view of spiritual experiences is an evolving one as I
gather more data on how our brains function.
Most of what I remember about Rory is that he uses a style of reframing
language as a type of verbal jiu jitsu. By this I mean when people attack him
he refers to them as a part of himself attacking himself. Although I don't
doubt this emerges from his internal experiences, it is also embedded in a
philosophy and web of beliefs about the world that I do not share. I think it
is a really good linguistic coping strategy for the projectile attacks that
this place is full of. It works on many different levels for him.
So why the drive by today? Because I like Rory and don't want to let an
impression remain that I think of him in such a negative way. If he expressed
it all as art rather than philosophy I would just appreciate him as I do the
rest of my wacky artistic buddies. He is a really creative guy and I value
that. But when it is expressed as philosophy I like to show where I am drawing
my lines to distinguish my beliefs from his or anyone else who expresses a
"spiritual" POV. I don't share the confidence "spiritual" people do in their
assumptions or conclusions and enjoy expressing my evolving POV. (Or at least I
used to here.)
Another big plus in my mind about Rory is that he values rapport here as I do.
I remember our interactions very positively. He came off as willing to interact
with someone skeptical about his conclusions about his own experiences.
Maharishi certainly was never open to that kind of dialogue and interaction.
So "respect" Rory. You are interpreting your experiences in life just as I do.
I may not share your conclusions, nor you mine. The fact that we looked beyond
that to have some interesting discussions here makes you a bro in my book. If I
came off as harsh toward you in the past, I apologize.
--- In [email protected], "RoryGoff" <rorygoff@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "authfriend" <authfriend@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In [email protected], "RoryGoff" <rorygoff@> wrote:
> > (snip)
> > > Ha! You crack me up, Ravi. I love how you -- and apparently
> > > Judy, and Curtis, of course -- can tell with such utter
> > > certainty that my entire spiritual life has been phony.
> >
> > I never suggested that, Rory, nor did I say I could
> > tell anything about you with anything like "utter
> > certainty." I really don't appreciate your claiming
> > otherwise.
>
> I said "apparently" in your case, Judy, as it did appear that way to me. You
> may have meant it differently, of course, but "phony as a three-dollar bill"
> sounded pretty certain to me. I didn't register your saying anything like,
> "Well, I don't know for sure, of course, but at the moment it appears to me
> that ..." etc. Again, I am only "claiming" how it appeared to me. If you
> meant otherwise, I am sorry, and thank you for clarifying.
>
