You don't seem t be a fellow who parctices what he preaches. ===== All valid observations and insights that you need to temper your own experience with, not deconstruct the validity of another's experience. You can only talk about what you experience, not another. And certainly don't expect social consensus with someone like MMY. Your mind is never going to get him. Never, ever. Amen. DR PS
====== And yet you deconstruct my intellectual understandtings, motives and experiences. You may best be suited to taking your own advice and doing such to your own eperiences, not others. Aside from your imputing motives, rather crudely I might add, you have suggeted a theory as to why so many people report quite different things in their self-proclaimed state of enlightenment. I suggest another theory, perhaps closer to Ochams Razor: the various self-proclaimed liberated are experiencing different things and thus describing it diferently. And/or in some caes, simply parroting what they have read or heard others say. While I acknowledged that differences are expected when the Indescribable is described, parallel to your point that "the "difference" is more the result of different minds/culture expressing that which is outside of expression", I went on to say that it is simply odd when some express things that are directly contradictory "there is no ego", "there is an ego". Such a contradiction is far beyond cultural differences as I am sure we can agree. Thus I favor my hypothesis over yours. But it raises an interesting point. If you hold that directly contradictory statements about enlightenment are valid, then it seems anything could be said about it. Thus what is the value of discussion orexposition? Its all valid: "Enlightenment is a red popsicle" "no enlightenement is an orange and purple giraffe." "Enlightenment is dreaming of sugar plums and dancing rag dolls full of glee" "Liberation is arguing about what liberation is" "Liberation is Liberace". The Gita and Tropic of Cancer are allequally valid expositions of IT. Is that your view, that all statements, contradictory or not, are all vaild statements about enlightenment? If not, why do yuo argue that statements such as "there is an ego" and "there is not ego" are valid and just "cultural differences? Again, I am quite bafled by your logic and understandings. You ask, "Also, why the hostility?" Is that a reference to world affairs. I missed the segue. If by some small chance yo are actually refering to my post, I am baffled (again) by your statements. Please point to any hostility. I have reread my post and find none. Its more a late night reflective meandering, but hostility? Or is that the reaction you got upon reading something that disturbed you? You refer to my experiences. I reference them obliquley. "anyone who s experiencing Effulgence, a seemingly endless flow of liveliness, unshakable bliss (not all bliss is dumb), constant wakefulness, actions happening, knowledge happening, loss of possessionship (of ideas, POVs, relations and things), compassion that seems to be rooted at the core of everything, a limitless sense of wonder -- and irony, a not so worried view of "pending disasters", a not so impressed view of pending sucesses, then wonderful." These are my experiences. You are right, they don't meet my conceptual definitions of enlightenment for I have none. In my post I was simply suggestng that claiming labels is just as superficial and maningless as it sounds -- something plastic and cheap that a dynamo laberler could make. Talking about various concrete experiences makes a lot more sense to me. Not to you too? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > You seem to approach Realization as some sort of > intellectual exercise. You seek conceptual consistancy > and coherence like it was some sort of waking state > intellectual product. You're not going to find that. > While there is comminality to realization, there is > also "difference". The "difference" is more the result > of different minds/culture expressing that which is > outside of expression. Also, why the hostility? It > seems that people who talk about enlightenment > experiences that don't meet your conceptual definition > get you angry in some way. Is that right? > > --- anonymousff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > The self-proclamation part has always struck me as > > odd. Linked to the > > absolutist interpretations of what IT IS. As if > > there is some > > insecurity. THIS has to be IT. And odd that there > > are strong mandates > > of how IT can be spoken of. And how IT cannot. And > > what one can > > understand and what one cannot. > > > > And if anyone is experiencing Effulgence, a > > seemingly endless flow of > > liveliness, unshakable bliss (not all bliss is > > dumb), constant > > wakefulness, actions happening, knowledge happening, > > loss of > > possessionship (of ideas, POVs, relations and > > things), compassion that > > seems to be rooted at the core of everything, a > > limitless sense of > > wonder -- and irony, a not so worried view of > > "pending disasters", a > > not so impressed view of pending sucesses, then > > wonderful. Why not > > speak of these things. Why speak in nebulous labels > > of "liberation, > > awakening, and enlightenment"? Whose liberation, > > whose awakening? So > > many paths, so many traditions make so many > > distinctions. Lots of > > trail markers on this hike. Why be so anxious to > > claim the pinnacle. > > Why not just claim, if claims are needed, "I am > > hiking, and its fun". > > (oops, sorry "the body is hiking" <smirk> > > > > > > (And I mean experience not in the sense of "I see > > the flower" and this > > "I experience it", but in the sense of > > "Consciousness Groking", > > > > And the process of self-proclamation, what a > > concept. Someone reads a > > book and says "I GET that! I must be enlightened." > > "hm, they say here > > no-self is enlightenment. I have searched high and > > low and cannot find > > an ego. Ergo I am enlightened." Yet so many > > self-proclaimed > > enlightened, even here on this list, but more so > > else where, directly > > contradict each other. > > > > Sure the indescribable can be approached from > > different angles. But > > its odd when A says "There is absolutely no ego" and > > B says, "of > > course there is an ego, you are insane to think > > there isn't", and C > > says "well, there is an ego, but it finds its proper > > role as servant, > > not master" and D says "You are a fool to try to > > understand this > > paradox of ego, it is Brahman, it is confusion" and > > E says "well, if > > you take this conic section and slice it, its clear > > the ego is an > > elipse with 16 dancing golden elves who are really > > the ashwins." > > Perhaps they each went to a different Satsang, or > > read a different book. > > > > Its odd too people claim labels (enlightenemnt, > > awakening, > > liberation", and not specific "attributes" of such. > > Its as if the > > label is a smoke screen for "all attributes". But > > few are willng to > > proclaim specific attributes and discuss in detail. > > Which if the > > purpose is helping others, to promote insight and > > understanding, could > > serve a role. But usually its "la de da liberation". > > > > > > The socratic method always struck me as useful. No > > proclamations. > > Simply questions crafted to allow others to get IT > > in their own way, > > by their own means. Not that such should be a > > universal mandate, but > > it does seem to be a humble path to sharing > > knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > --------------------~--> > > Drugs Don't Discriminate. Get help for yourself or > > someone you know. > > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/0I.OUB/ZbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > > > > > To subscribe, send a message to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Or go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ > > and click 'Join This Group!' > > Yahoo! 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