--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jyouells2000" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <jstein@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jyouells2000" <jyouells@> 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <jstein@> 
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <sparaig@> 
wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" 
<jstein@> 
> > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <vajranatha@> 
wrote:
> > > > > > > On Apr 17, 2006, at 12:01 PM, sparaig wrote:
> > > > > > <snip>
> > > > > > > > There's no mention of correlation between EEG changes 
and
> > > > > > > > enlightenment in any of the research that Vaj 
mentions, 
> > > > whereas
> > > > > > > > that's one of the big areas of study for EEG and 
brain 
> > > > imaging 
> > > > > at
> > > > > > > > MUM currently.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > The way I would show the same EEG pattern if I wanted 
to 
> > > > > > > duplicate "witnessing" on the EEG is to do ishta 
meditation 
> > > > > > > with a mantra (what Tibetans call yidam practice). It 
> > > > > > > duplicates the same EEG signature as TMers doing ishta 
> > mantra. 
> > > > > > > Very easy to do.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > But you'd be meditating, right?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I think Lawson's talking about in activity.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Both. The description of meditation in the samatha pdf file 
> > starts 
> > > > > off sounding like TM and then morphs into something else, 
or so 
> > it 
> > > > > seems. Any technique that inspires that kind of first-hand 
> > > > > description definitely isn't TM, though without direct 
> > comparisons 
> > > > > of EEG and other physiological parameters, we can't be sure 
if 
> > the 
> > > > > distinctions have any pragmatic effect on what is actually 
> > going on 
> > > > > in the brain.
> > > > 
> > > > Right.  My point was that Vaj is claiming he can emulate
> > > > the TM EEG signature *during meditation*, but even if he
> > > > can, that wouldn't necessarily mean he could also
> > > > emulate it *during activity*.
> > > > 
> > > > While "witnessing" certainly can occur during TM, the
> > > > bread-and-butter aspect is when it occurs in activity. 
> > > > 
> > > > > Also, Ken Wilber's cute little EEG demo shows nothing in 
> > > > > and of itself. Vaj appears to be basing his claims on 
> > > > > Wilber's demo or something that he has done himself with 
> > > > > similar apparatus.
> > > > 
> > > > Well, it shows he has some control over whatever it is
> > > > the machine is measuring, which is moderately impressive
> > > > in and of itself.  But it doesn't get us anywhere unless
> > > > we have a better idea of what it's measuring.
> > > 
> > > Judy, 
> > >   Wilber talks extensively about his experience of witnessing. 
> > > From his writings it's pretty clear he has the experience.
> > 
> > I don't believe I suggested that Wilber didn't have
> > the experience of witnessing, so I'm not sure of the
> > relevance of this to what I said.
> >
> 
> Oops, sparaig, said it not you... Sorry 'bout that miscounted my 
>>'s

Gotcha.  But I don't think that's what Lawson was saying
either.  I think he was simply saying the little machine
Wilber was using to monitor his brainwaves doesn't prove
he was witnessing.

After all this time, if Wilber isn't having witnessing
experience, something's wrong!  And his descriptions
certainly do ring true.  But that might or might not
show up on his homemade EEG machine; it's just too crude.







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