--- In [email protected], "jyouells2000" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In [email protected], "authfriend" <jstein@> wrote: > > > > --- In [email protected], "jyouells2000" <jyouells@> > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "authfriend" <jstein@> wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "sparaig" <sparaig@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "authfriend" <jstein@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Vaj <vajranatha@> wrote: > > > > > > > On Apr 17, 2006, at 12:01 PM, sparaig wrote: > > > > > > <snip> > > > > > > > > There's no mention of correlation between EEG changes and > > > > > > > > enlightenment in any of the research that Vaj mentions, > > > > whereas > > > > > > > > that's one of the big areas of study for EEG and brain > > > > imaging > > > > > at > > > > > > > > MUM currently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The way I would show the same EEG pattern if I wanted to > > > > > > > duplicate "witnessing" on the EEG is to do ishta meditation > > > > > > > with a mantra (what Tibetans call yidam practice). It > > > > > > > duplicates the same EEG signature as TMers doing ishta > > mantra. > > > > > > > Very easy to do. > > > > > > > > > > > > But you'd be meditating, right? > > > > > > > > > > > > I think Lawson's talking about in activity. > > > > > > > > > > Both. The description of meditation in the samatha pdf file > > starts > > > > > off sounding like TM and then morphs into something else, or so > > it > > > > > seems. Any technique that inspires that kind of first-hand > > > > > description definitely isn't TM, though without direct > > comparisons > > > > > of EEG and other physiological parameters, we can't be sure if > > the > > > > > distinctions have any pragmatic effect on what is actually > > going on > > > > > in the brain. > > > > > > > > Right. My point was that Vaj is claiming he can emulate > > > > the TM EEG signature *during meditation*, but even if he > > > > can, that wouldn't necessarily mean he could also > > > > emulate it *during activity*. > > > > > > > > While "witnessing" certainly can occur during TM, the > > > > bread-and-butter aspect is when it occurs in activity. > > > > > > > > > Also, Ken Wilber's cute little EEG demo shows nothing in > > > > > and of itself. Vaj appears to be basing his claims on > > > > > Wilber's demo or something that he has done himself with > > > > > similar apparatus. > > > > > > > > Well, it shows he has some control over whatever it is > > > > the machine is measuring, which is moderately impressive > > > > in and of itself. But it doesn't get us anywhere unless > > > > we have a better idea of what it's measuring. > > > > > > Judy, > > > Wilber talks extensively about his experience of witnessing. > > > From his writings it's pretty clear he has the experience. > > > > I don't believe I suggested that Wilber didn't have > > the experience of witnessing, so I'm not sure of the > > relevance of this to what I said. > > > > Oops, sparaig, said it not you... Sorry 'bout that miscounted my >>'s
Gotcha. But I don't think that's what Lawson was saying either. I think he was simply saying the little machine Wilber was using to monitor his brainwaves doesn't prove he was witnessing. After all this time, if Wilber isn't having witnessing experience, something's wrong! And his descriptions certainly do ring true. But that might or might not show up on his homemade EEG machine; it's just too crude. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
