--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Bill (William)Simmons"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> That's ok,,,I am certainly accustomed to defensiveness both
> passive and agressive when speaking about TM with TM'rs
Do you ever defend things you believe in when others
criticize them? Are you being "defensive" when you do
that?
> > How can you tell the difference between someone
> > who is totally brainwashed and programmed and
> > somebody who is so excited by something they've
> > just learned they can't stop talking about it?
>
> Personally, when I am excited about something I have experienced I
> speak in terms of "I" and "we" but in the case in point it was
> all "Maharishi,,,Maharishi,,,Maharishi. Indicating an almost
> absence of self awareness and identity. Only Maharishi
> existed,,,only his word, his thoughts, his ideals
OK, that's a reasonable criterion. I'm not sure it's
*definitive*, but it's a place to start.
,,,truely
> frightening that one person, a simple man who bleeds like the rest
> of us,,,eats like the rest of us and excretes bodily wastes like
> the rest of us could be looked upon as different.
Unless there are differences that don't have to do
with physical functions.
> But then I have walked through the halls of his Center of
> Enlightenment in Huntsville. Dingy, old, smells of mould, paint
> pealing off the walls. Kitchen appliances that look like fire
> hazards. It seemed totally void of life joy or happiness. I felt
> like I was walking through a morgue. No plants, no flowers only
> picture after endless picture of Maharishi himself on the walls.
Don't know about Huntsville, but there are TM centers
that are a lot more pleasant.
> > Just for the record, the "German study" is a
> > complete crock. If you're interested to know
> > more, do a search on Google Groups in the group
> > alt.meditation.transcendental for "German study."
>
> Ah yes an impartial government study is a crock.
It was neither a "government study" nor impartial.
I wonder where you got the impression that it was?
> Well I don't think the German courts share you view.
Actually, the lower court that ruled on the initial
lawsuit brought by TM found the following:
The documentary evidence submitted by the Plaintiffs and by the
Defendant does not demonstrate that individuals who are actively
involved in the TM movement, or who meditate only according to
the TM technique, are more susceptible to mental illness than
the average population.
The "Documentation About the Effects of Youth Religion on Minors
in Specific Cases" prepared by the "Action for Mental and
Psychic Freedom", and the "Documentation on Transcendental
Meditation", as well as the study "Differential Effects of the
Practice of Transcendental Meditation" prepared by the Institute
for Youth and Society, headquartered in Bensheim, are not based
on a scientific sampling. These studies dealt only with
isolated cases, and only with persons who are hostile to the
movement were interviewed.
Moreover, in well over half of the cases studied, the persons
interviewed had no direct knowledge [of the TM technique or
organization], since the information was obtained from third
parties, i.e., parents or spouses, without the presence of
those who had been directly involved.
These studies were prepared by religious-ideological opponents
of the TM movement, and are obviously biased.
Note: the "Institute for Youth and Society" is not
an agency of the German government. TM brought the
lawsuit against the government to prevent it from
citing the findings of the "study" from this institute
because it was so absurdly unscientific and biased.
The government appealed the lower court's ruling in
favor of TM; and the decisions in the higher courts
against TM's suit were made on jurisdictional grounds.
The lower court was the only one to rule on whether
the study itself was valid.
Did you find that information wherever you read
about the German study?
Here's a link to a detailed post on exactly what
was involved in the court case (from the Google
Group alt.meditation.transcendental):
http://tinyurl.com/ovhah
> Can you tell me who set up and who
> sponsored the site you have recommended?
alt.meditation.transcendental is a Usenet newsgroup
that's been around since 1994. Google Groups
maintains the Usenet archives and provides an
interface for participation in the newsgroups via
the Web.
alt.m.t was initially started by TMers (not the TMO,
by the way), but it was quickly invaded by TM critics.
What you'll find there if you do a search for "German
study" is extensive debate between supporters and
critics of TM (prominently including the participation
of John Knapp, the then-proprietor of the anti-TM site
Trancenet).
> > For that matter, practically everything you'll
> > find on Trancenet is dubious in one way or the
> > other. Not a reliable source of information on
> > TM.
>
> I have been to far more sites then Trancenet but thank you for your
> advice.
Frankly, I haven't seen one Web site devoted to
criticism of TM that was a reliable source of
information. (Not that pro-TM sites are entirely
reliable either in some respects, but that's
another issue.)
You're more likely to get a balanced view by
reading debates that present both sides on a forum
such as this or alt.m.t and asking questions. Then
you can make up your own mind as to where the truth
lies.
> > Most people just learn TM and go away and
> > practice it on their own without going any
> > further or becoming involved in the TM
> > organization.
> >
> > It's also entirely possible to learn the
> > TM-Sidhis and/or become involved with the TM
> > organization without getting into a cultlike
> > relationship with it.
> >
> > Some people seem to need to establish a
> > cultlike relationship with the TMO, and
> > unfortunately the TMO doesn't do anything
> > to discourage that.
>
> Absolutely and I couldn't agree more with these statements. In fact
> I meditate myself,,,regularly. But its not just the cult like
> mentality referring to the TMO it is also the "worshipping" of a
> man, that man being Maharishi.
Well, I don't know how many of even the most hardcore
TMers actually "worship" Maharishi, any more than
Catholics "worship" the pope or Republicans "worship"
George Bush. They do hold MMY in the highest esteem,
frequently to an unrealistic degree (just like Catholics
and Republicans do with the pope and Bush).
He's held in such high esteem by committed TMers because
they find his teaching about the nature and mechanics
of consciousness to be exceptionally profound (including
the results of practicing his techniques in their own
lives). The mistake they may make (IMHO) is that they
assume his views of other issues (political, economic,
social) are equally profound.
> He's just a man who has made billions
> selling a customised version of Hinduism. And there's nothing wrong
> with that. Just be honest and call it what it is.
But that wouldn't be entirely honest. MMY doesn't
require TMers to convert to even a "customized version"
of Hinduism; rather, he encourages them to continue to
practice the religion of their heritage. What he has
tried to do is make available a completely *nonsectarian*
version of a technique that has its origins in Hinduism
(it may even be pre-Hindu, but that's another discussion).
And while he has enabled the TMO to make "billions,"
and controls what is done with the funds, he hasn't
used them to enrich himself, unlike, say, Baghwan
Shree Rajneesh or quite a few other Indian gurus.
<snip>
> > I kind of doubt she believed she was actually
> > levitating beyond the "first stage" (hopping)
> > of Yogic Flying.
>
> Wanna bet!!!
Sure. Can you get her to post to this forum?
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