Ditto. Excellent discussion between two fine writers and thinkers. Big thanks for that.
** --- In [email protected], "curtisdeltablues" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Great responses man, thanks. Lots to think about. > > > --- In [email protected], new.morning <no_reply@> wrote: > > > > --- In [email protected], "curtisdeltablues" > > > > --- In [email protected], new.morning <no_reply@> wrote: > > > > You discount > > > > my experience -- thats fine. Particularly if you have repeated > > > > personal experience in which no value was gained, and no experience > > > > was occuring. > > > > > > Since none of us actually experience causation, we build our beliefs > > > around our conclusions from our experiences. Even MMY makes this > > > critical epistemological distinction that simultaneity is not the same > > > as causation. > > > > Causation can be demonstrated statistically -- but thats probably > > beyond common personal practice. Still, while one similtenatity may be > > coincidence, a dozen such, in different contexts, is "common sense" > > causality. How many times do you need to slip in ice to avoid icy > > spots on the walkway in winter? Is that dumb superstition, or > > worldly-wise common sense? If a yagya results in the same experience a > > dozen times, its not that much of a stretch to posit causality. > > Demonstrating in a scientific paper takes more. But we live our lives > > all the time positing causality without statistical proof. > > > > > > > > > I am not inclined to discount people's reports of subjective > > > experiences since I have had plenty of them myself. It is what we > > > conclude about their value that may distinguish our views. > > > > My sense of value of yagyas is probablistic. I don't really know their > > effect. Given the direct experience, I find it plausible, not > > certain, that they could have a wider, deeper, core-level effect. > > > > > > > As I said, I don't discount the subjective experience, I reject the > > > physical effect claims. > > > > I don't make any firm claims. I simply extraoplate that they may have > > "peaceful effect" beyond "the room". > > > > > I don't need an explanation to enjoy > > > it. If you wanted to charge me $1000 to hear magical music that would > > > cure cancer, I might have a bigger stake in asking questions. > > > > OK, but a bit of a strawman relative to my view of yagyas. I am not > > suggesting a $1000 yagya can cure cancer. Or anything like that. > > > > > I know > > > a lot of reasons why Delta blues moves me. It has to do with my > > > values and what I am looking for from music. I understand why I like > > > it so much. Some of the reasons are very logical given my personal > > > values and taste. Art and logic are not in a battle in my life. They > > > play nicely together. > > > > I know a lot of reasons why yagyas moves me. It has to do with my > > values and what I am looking for from yagyas. I understand why I like > > it so much. Some of the reasons are very logical given my personal > > values and taste. Art and logic are not in a battle in my life. They > > play nicely together. :) > > > > > But these are areas where falsifiability is not > > > needed. The only person who cares about my taste is me. But a claim > > > concerning the outer physical effects of yagyas is an area that > > > requires (for me) more support in how it works for me to take the > > > theory seriously. So far I am not convinced in its theoretical > > > support or its empirical proof. I consider it a low probability area > > > so I don't give it much attention. I think focusing on their outer > > > effects is misguided and misses their real value to people which I > > > will discuss below. > > > > But these are areas where falsifiability is not > > needed. The only person who cares about my taste is me. And since > > the global outer physical effects of yagyas is at a low ranking of my > > values, I am less concerned about absolute proof. The direct > > experience is as real as the effect of delta blues on you. The art and > > pagentry are evident. A global or social effect is plausible, a nice > > bonus. Since I don't focus primarily or soley on there being possible > > larger and global effects, your issues with yagyas don't appear to > > apply to me. > > > > > > > I have a plausible, and for me satisfying theory of how pujas, > > > meditations and chanting effects my mind. I do not have a theory that > > > supports a trans personal effect on the world or the physical claims > > > of yagyas done for specific physical effects. > > > > I have a loose conceptual framework in which such are plausible. For > > such speculation on plausible possibilities, no rigourous proof is > > needed. > > > > > I do not discount the experiences of others as misguided moodmaking > > > concerning people's subjective effects from these traditional > > > practices. I do not believe that they are influencing the world in > > > the manor claimed. > > > > I am not claiming such. Plausible speculation and musings perhaps. > > > > >I have participated in yagyas with MMY and outside > > > the movement. My Vedic wedding was about 5 hours long. It was a > > > blast. I got a great rent-a-pundit from one of the DC temples and we > > > threw dung in a fire for hours. I felt a very heightened state of > > > mind. Having spent years rounding, I was in a perfect frame of mind > > > to really enjoy it's effect. > > > > Cool. > > > > > But I do not believe that we actually > > > got the blessings of the planet Ketu despite throwing a lot of dung in > > > the fire while hearing ketu namaha thousands of times. > > > > Clearly you slipped up and used your left hand at one point. > > > > > It was a > > > cultural ceremony that had lots of psychological values and social > > > values > > > > Yes, that is part of my reasons for liking yagyas. > > > > > beyond the belief that all the gods and planets were actually > > > blessing us. It is a nice poetic thought that they were, but I do not > > > share MMY's view that something more profound was happening with the > > > "laws of nature". > > > > We may all have different views of what is beyond the empirically > > obvious. Some may hold there is nothing. I think there are forces of > > nature, not necessarily anthropormorphic entities. Its plausible to me > > that yagyas, as well as catholic masses and mardi gras celebrations > > enliven such. > > > > > > > > > I am not sure I see your point > > > > about "selling" I have never had a TMO yagya -- but the ones I have > > > > sponsored, no on is getting rich. > > > > > > I think I agree with you here. The services of a the pundit I hired > > > to do my wedding and bless my house was super reasonable and I got my > > > money's worth. I don't object to them making a buck for the service. > > > I do reject MMY charging my friend $10,000 for rituals that you and I > > > both know should cost a lot less. > > > > None of my points have been about or defending TMO yagyas. > > > > It is the excessive markup that I > > > resent in the movement and the fact that these yagyas were for a > > > specific medical condition and there was no follow up or concern that > > > it did not work. > > > > OK. But such a concern is not a valid critique of yagyas. Its like > > saying all cars are bad because there is a used car lot that uses low > > level, pricing, marketing and sales tactics. > > > > Even though I do not believe in the larger effect of > > > yagyas I would gladly participate in one again and would get the same > > > wonderful feeling I'm sure. Yagyas are really charming. I went to > > > one with a bunch of Indians and they mostly talked though it. I would > > > much rather go with people who were there for the mental effect. I > > > would happily throw dung into a fire with you man! > > > > Cool. Lets do it some day. In some ancient temples in India. Or on the > > beach in Big Sur. Or on a peak above Tahoe. > > > > > I hope my response had cleared up what I was blasting. Telling > > > someone who is desperate with a health complaint that an expensive > > > yagya will help them creeps me out. > > > > Thats been clear from the beginning. My point is thats NOT what yagas > > are about, IMO, IME. > > > > > As cultural entertainment I am > > > all in. Although I may come across as a curmudgeon, I have taken a > > > long time to understand religions from an anthropological > > > perspective, and that suits me. > > > > I am not a fanatic or even a regular. Its been years since I have been > > to one. All this discussion started just because I thought the image > > of 16000 pundits at the cetner of the India was nice. > > > > > They don't need to to get some physical benefit from the > > > ritual for it to have value. > > > > Me too. I think looking at yagyas as a magic genie is shallow. To me > > its a way of giving gratitude. > > > > > I have a number of Vietnamese and Thai friends. When I hang with my > > > Thai friends and we visit their temple, I take off my shoes and burn > > > incense. I put my palms together and let the monks "bless me". I > > > don't get into a debate about what it all "really" means. When I hang > > > with my Vietnamese friends they have alters to their relatives in > > > their homes. It is beautiful as a reminder of love. I don't have to > > > believe that their offerings (sometimes it is cigarettes and liquor > > > which is very funny looking with my puja background!) are actually > > > going to their dead relatives. I see it for its value to the living > > > family. Their grandmothers believe that these gifts actually reache a > > > dead person. If it gives them comfort, who cares. > > > > Yes. > > > > >I think MMY's yagya program focuses on the > > > magical effect rather than its psychological or social value. So from > > > my POV this is a mistake and he is wrong for taking so much money from > > > people for something which should just be a beautiful thing that > > > people can do for one hundredth the price. > > > > > I > > > think it is time for people to see religions as expressions of human > > > hopes and dreams > > > > Yes. > > > > > rather than a connection with an infinite power. > > > > Infinite power is ok if used to reduce suffering, poverty, disease, > > ignorance, etc. > > > > > > > > I hope you understand where I am at better, where I am drawing my own > > > lines on these issues. > > > > I do. > > > > > Thanks for going beyond the surface. I look > > > forward to hearing your take on this in more detail. > > > > Its always fun to have discussions with you. > > >
