Dear Loet, dear Pedro,
On 11 Apr 2012, at 11:28, Loet Leydesdorff wrote:
Dear Pedro,
You are right: the dimensionality of thermodynamic entropy is Joule/
Kelvin.
Probabilistic entropy/uncertainty/information is dimensionless and
measured in bits.
Configurational information (a point of access to measuring meaning)
is also measured in bits, but it is not a Shannon entropy
(Krippendorff, 2009). It can be considered as a redundancy =
reduction of uncertainty = a difference which makes a difference.
I agree. Redundancy is the key, in my opinion (and work). Note that if
you enumerate the partial computable functions (from N to N to fix the
thing), there is an important redundancy which cannot be removed in
any computable way.
Information is then generated from the first person point of view of
the (universal, Löbian) machine trying to bet on its most probable
universal neighbors. (cf the first person indeterminacy(*)). Hard
calculus because the redundancy is infinite.
I distinguish the finite information, available locally by machine,
and which can be treated as numbers, but with extensional and
intensional roles (cf 17 is prime versus 17 is the number address of
the café) from what a universal number (machine) do with that number.
This provides a clean base for the distinction between information
capable of quantitative evaluation and meaning, although it is only
just a tiny part of the meaning which is addressed here, of course.
The meaning admits many quantitative aspect, but cannot be
characterized by one measurement.
A Löbian machine or number is a universal machine or number which
knows, in some technical sense, that he.she/it is universal. It is
aware of its ignorance, notably about the universal neighbors.
Bruno
(*) You might look at my short article:
http://www.scitopics.com/The_first_person_computationalist_indeterminacy.html
Loet Leydesdorff
Professor, University of Amsterdam
Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR),
Kloveniersburgwal 48, 1012 CX Amsterdam.
Tel.: +31-20- 525 6598; fax: +31-842239111
l...@leydesdorff.net ; http://www.leydesdorff.net/ ;
http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en
From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es
] On Behalf Of Pedro C. Marijuan
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2012 10:44 AM
To: fis@listas.unizar.es
Subject: Re: [Fis] Physics of computing
Dear John and colleagues,
Nice to hear that you are OK after that dangerous intoxication --our
best wishes for your complete recovery!
About physical information I think that Landauer clarified the
panorama, at least concerning the relationship between information
theory and thermodynamics. According to his principle, any logically
irreversible transformation of classical information is necessarily
accompanied by the dissipation of at least k T ln(2) of heat per
lost bit (about 3 x 10 exp -21 Joules at 300 K temperature), where
obviously k is the Boltzmann constant and T the temperature.
Recently this principle has been verified experimentally (Nature, 8
March 2012, p. 187). By the way, in his past message Loet enters
"Watts" in a similar expression (?). To insist, Entropy and
Information are dimensionless and do not explicitly incorporate any
units... About the quantum management of info theory, it is another
matter, quite more tricky.
Beyond that immediate physicality, things get quite obscure as our
contradictory "meaning" messages witness. The point made by Joseph
on an overarching logic, is rather difficult to be maintained --at
least in my small province of the biological signaling pathways. Too
many logics are used biologically in too many different contexts or
niches, either molecularly or neuronally... I bet that they are not
susceptible of integration in any logical system. Maybe Inbiosa
parties would also disagree with me in this regard.
best wishes to all,
---Pedro
John Collier escribió:
Folks,
I have been in the hospital for almost three weeks due to bleeding
from warfarin. I had to have three blood transfusions and an
operation. I am only now getting my strength back. Some of my
comments, therefore, may be dated.
"Physical" has a variety of overlapping meanings (a Wittgensteinian
family resemblence). For example Quine takes the physical to be
anything accessible to the senses or inferences therefrom. Ladyman,
Ross, Collier an Spurrett take the physical to be the most
fundamental laws of our (part of) the universe. I did not agree with
this, among some other crucial points, so I was not a primary
author. Information is at least physical in both of these senses.
Quine's approach might make it entirely physical. I prefer to relate
it to the causal, which always has physical parametres, as far as we
know. But there are many ways of approaching this issue, and
disentangling them will be a major advance in foundations of
information theory.
My Best,
John
Professor John Collier
Philosophy, University of KwaZulu-Natal
Durban 4041 South Africa
T: +27 (31) 260 3248 / 260 2292
F: +27 (31) 260 3031
email: colli...@ukzn.ac.za>>> On 2012/03/16 at 01:19 PM, in message <4f6321c3.5000...@aragon.es
>, "Pedro C. Marijuan"<pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es> wrote:
Dear discussants,
I tend to disagree with the motto "information is physical" if taken
too strictly. Obviously if we look "downwards" it is OK, but in the
"upward" direction it is different. Info is not only physical then,
and the dimension of self-construction along the realization of life
cycle has to be entered. Then the signal, the info, has "content"
and "meaning". Otherwise if we insist only in the physical downward
dimension we have just conventional computing/ info processing. My
opinion is that the notion of absence is crucial for advancing in
the upward, but useless in the downward.
By the way, I already wrote about info and the absence theme in a
1994 or 1995 paper in BioSystems...
best
---Pedro
walter.riof...@terra.com.pe escribió:
Thanks John and Kevin to update issues in information, computation,
energy and reality.
I would like point out to other articles more focused in how
coherence and entanglement are used by living systems (far from
thermal equilibrium):
Engel G.S., Calhoun T.R., Read E.L., Ahn T.K., Mancal T., Cheng
Y.C., Blankenship R.E., Fleming G.R. (2007) Evidence for wavelike
energy transfer through quantum coherence in photosynthetic systems.
Nature, 446(7137): 782-786.
Collini E., Scholes G. (2009) Coherent intrachain energy in
migration in a conjugated polymer at room temperature. Science,
vol. 323 No. 5912 pp. 369-373.
Gauger E.M., Rieper E., Morton J.J.L., Benjamin S.C., Vedral V.
(2011) Sustained Quantum Coherence and Entanglement in the Avian
Compass. Phys. Rev. Lett., 106: 040503.
Cia, J. et al, (2009) Dynamic entanglement in oscillating
molecules. arXiv:0809.4906v1 [quant-ph]
Sincerely,
Walter
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Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Avda. Gómez Laguna, 25, Pl. 11ª
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Telf: 34 976 71 3526 (& 6818) Fax: 34 976 71 5554
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