Hi there,

Stuart Buchanan wrote:
> --- Chris Wilkinson wrote:
> 
>>Flightgear should be focusing on making it easier for Joe Averages
>>like me to create new scenery and aircraft. The tools are available
>>but can be (for Linux users) incredibly difficult to install. Thats
>>one thing preventing me from fixing some really bad runway/taxiway
>>layouts in my local area. 
> 
> You certainly aren't Joe Average, Chris. Unfortunately you are "cutting
> edge" whether you want to be or not :) Linux users who don't compile their
> own code are not as common as Windows users in the same position.

If I was not Joe Average I would be able to get the tools working. I
have failed to, so if I am *not* Joe Average I'm either less than Joe,
or the tools really *are* too difficult to get working...

> I notice that a windows binary of Taxidraw is available, but not an
> equivalent for SUSE. Presumably you've tried compiling this and hit
> problems?

There is a binary rpm of fgfs hidden in some unknown suse repository,
but no taxidraw or fgsd or terragear.

>>The river/sea boundaries are also a complete dogs bollocks, 
> 
> I'll translate this as "dogs breakfast" - over in the U.K. the "dogs
> bollocks" is a very positive term - i.e. "FlightGear is the dogs bollocks
> when it comes to flight simulation".

Thats my kiwi-ism coming into play. Something that is 'bollocks' in
NZ is not good, but if it was 'primo' or 'choice' it would be good.
Flightgear is at a stage where its pretty choice, but the scenery
generation/creation tools are falling behind the main app.

>>and a model of the Brisbane CBD I've built is a waste
>>of time because the river that winds around the CBD is really badly
>>defined in the default scenery. I didn't create nice models of CBD
>>skyscrapers to have them dabble their feet half way across a river.
>>
>>http://users.tpg.com.au/blobster/innaccurate-river.jpg
> 
> It isn't a waste of time. As has been pointed out on the dev list, scenery
> generation is _hard_. In particular creating a framework where user
> modifications can be incorporated into the generic scenery easily is
> particularly difficult and people are working to get that right. 
> 
> What certainly would be a waste of time would be making scenery
> adjustments that aren't compatible with future scenery releases. Hence the
> work that Martin Spott and others are doing.
> 
> Unfortunately TerraGear does require quite a bit of savvy to use and has a
> steep learning curve. I don't realistically see this getting any easier in
> the future. I suspect that the best you can hope for is a system where you
> download a small section of the world into a GIS viewer, edit it, submit
> it back to the scenery database and then wait for a new set of scenery to
> be generated. In case you haven't seen this before, see here for further
> details: http://www.custom-scenery.org/

I can throw SRTM30 hgt data into Blender now with a script, place
a texture on it, and export to AC3D. If I created tiles of AC3D objects
like that, and used them instead of the default terrain I'm sure it
would look gorgeous, but I'm also sure it would be a slideshow not a
realtime 3D experience. :-(

>>I have placed the buildings to within a few metres of the real thing.
>>The green lines represent roughly where the river banks should be.
>>At (1) should be a botanic gardens, and at (2) should be the Kangaroo
>>Point cliffs, a 30-40m drop down to the river. The use of 90m terrain
>>means the cliffs will never be a reality, but thats where the Joe
>>Averages come in to play. I can get some more accurate terrain data
>>for that area, but since I cannot get the terrain tools working its
>>a moot point. The tools are too complex for Joe Averages to install.
>>
>>
>>>Good to hear about the 737s...don't suppose one can do anything but
>>
>>wait.
>>
>>>On the A340 issue, I do believe that VA's most common is the -600. I 
>>>think the main user of the -500 is Singapore, who use it in their 
>>>ultralong EWR-SIN route
>>
>>It would be easy for me to stretch the A340-500 model, but I'm afraid
>>it might just become another half-finished project, along with my
>>Brisbane/YBBN airport scenery, Christchurch/NZCH airport scenery,
>>777-300 model, 737-800 model, Gold Coast Australia scenery, and my
>>Brisbane CBD scenery.
>>
>>I want to finish these projects, but now I find I cannot because the
>>tools are not able to compile/work on my openSUSE 10.2 system. I'm
>>completely in the dark about programming/coding so suggestions that
>>I learn to code will not be taken in good humour... :-)
> 
> I think you are doing yourself a dis-service here. Animating an aircraft
> is always going to require some level of programming ability - analysis of
> the problem, encoding it into XML to do what you wish etc. 
> 
> I think the XML animation system is as simple as it can be. I guess one
> could write a plugin for Blender that would create animation scripts for a
> model, but it is probably more hassle than it is worth.
> 
> If you are able to do XML animations, then with a bit of effort you should
> be able to move on to using Nasal for more complex animations. Luckily
> there is plenty of code to copy and look at. I suggest you take it one
> step at a time. 
>  
>>Thats my gripe for the month. Constructive discussion on this is
>>welcome, but defensive subjective criticism of what I've posted
>>will not be.
> 
> You'll be lucky ;)
> 
> Making FlightGear and it's associated tools easier to use is a very hard
> challenge. Rightly or wrongly, contributors in a position to make it
> easier to use often have other projects which are more interesting and
> more important to them. Additionally, they are alsmost by definition,
> experts. Changing mind-set from that of an expert to Joe Average is quie a
> challenge.

It can be done. Other sims have comparatively easy to use tools for
that very purpose. Consequently a lot of user-created scenery exists.
Some of it is very realistic looking. Flightgear wins on its FDM
accuracy, but I think to do credit to that now requires some focus
on making scenery generation a much more user-friendly task, so
that the project can entice users like me to create nice scenery.

If Flightgear can combine its existing operational excellence, with
easy to use eye-candy tools - it'd be a hands-down winner.

> I don't believe that creating aircraft/scenery is ever going to be
> anything that Joe Average will do - simply because Joe Average won't use
> FlightGear - he'll use MSFS. It is also no unreasonable to expect that
> anyone wishing to create an aircraft or scenery go through some sort of
> learning curve to understand what they are doing. After all, there is
> learning associated with flying in the first place.
> 
> Learning is part of the fun! I got more out of learning how to create the
> Vulcan bomber than I did out of flying it.

Thats fine for some. People like yourself, with the patience and grey
matter to get to grips with such tasks I might add are a rare breed.
Because the numbers of such people are thin on the ground consequently
the amount of new scenery and planes will be correspondingly small.

Me? I'm a go-getter person, and dead keen to contribute as much as I
can to the project, but patience and intelligence are not virtues I
consider myself to have in bulk... :-)

Kind regards,

Chris Wilkinson, Brisbane, Australia.

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