Glen, (sorry I fell for the double n on my previous message).
GLEN HATH WROTH: Yes. I was here. I'm not an expert on Rosen.... I'm probably not even > a competent pseudo-expert. But I enjoy yapping uselessly about how we > might make his work useful. END WROTHING BY GLEN There are two kinds of people on this list. Those who think that the Emperor's New Clothes is a children's story and those who think that it is Parable Direct from God concerning the important role that non-experts can play in scientific discourse. I am in the latter category. Besides, can you imagine how long it would take to collect a passell of Rosen experts to talk about Rosen? Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, Clark University ([email protected]) http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > [Original Message] > From: glen e. p. ropella <[email protected]> > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected]> > Date: 9/25/2009 4:49:49 PM > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Inquiry to Emergence Group > > Thus spake Nicholas Thompson circa 09-09-25 01:09 PM: > > Glenn, > > OK. Shirley you're just messing with me, Nik. ;-) > > > is THIS: > > > >> I _may_, however, be able to simulate what Robert Rosen might say. The > >> knitter is the efficient cause of the sweater. And, hence, the sweater > >> is NOT closed to efficient cause. Hence, the sweater is not a complex > >> system. And, if we assume all complex systems exhibit emergence, then > >> he would say the sweater is NOT emergent (except perhaps if we expand > >> the "system" to include the actors which constitute the efficient cause, > >> of course). > > > > of the form: > > > > All swans are white > > This bird is white > > This bird is a swan > > > > ? > > Yes, except that I misspoke (surprise surprise). I meant to say "if we > assume that _only_ complex systems exhibit emergence, then RR would say > the sweater is NOT emergent." > > So, it would be of the form: > > Only swans are white. > This object is white. > .: This object is a swan. > > I think this is just the contrapositive. But remember that my > simulation added that last part. RR didn't talk about "emergence" as > far as I'm aware. > > > ps: Re Rosen; were you around two summers ago when I was beating my gums > > into plough shares trying to understand Rosen's Life Itself? I am hoping > > to get back to Rosen as one of the people who has a highly restricted view > > of emergence and who is also highly enthusiastic about downward causation. > > Who, in fact, is trying to create a formalism -- DENSMORE ALERT-- to > > describe such. > > Yes. I was here. I'm not an expert on Rosen.... I'm probably not even > a competent pseudo-expert. But I enjoy yapping uselessly about how we > might make his work useful. > > -- > glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://agent-based-modeling.com > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
