Nick/Eric - I think that while the sweater example points to a necessary property of a system to be considered to have emergent properties, but it is not sufficient. I think "Felt" is a better example in the same domain. Hairs have tiny "sawtooth" ridges that cause them to "ratchet" past each other and "lock" when matted tightly. By heating, lubricating and manipulating mats of hair, the "weave" gets tighter and tighter. (think Yak hair matted tightly onto an existing mother-blanket and then rolled tightly, soaked in Yak and Horse Piss, then tied behind a horse while riding wildly (or gently) over the steppes). The resulting property of a "tightly sprung" set of layers of hair that is useful in many ways (ask the inhabitants of the Eurasian Steppes) including being simultaneously waterproof, tear-resistant, and insulative, might be considered "emergent". I would contend that the results of weaving, knitting, crocheting, macrame-ing are merely "highly structured". I can see the reasons for wanting to think of this as "emergent", but I think it falls short of that mystical line... I might defer to an arguement about the *process* of developing knitting as having been emergent... that a series of simpler processes (see knots, macrame, even felting) with a different purpose, yielding a new process (knitting) might be above the mystical line. I do often wonder if "emergence", however is not strictly in the "eye of the beholder"? Is it possible that any complex conformational state which has properties (especially ones we find useful or threatening) we can't link back to the lower level elements or organization directly we want to call "emergent"? And once we understand how a process or complex conformational state leads to this, we are tempted to demote it? Sorry I'm not in the Emergent Club you are holding... but glad to be exposed to the discussion and have the opportunity to toss my $.02 in. As for Doug... *everything* about Doug is odd. That is what we like about him (along with his fine taste in Parrots, Scotch and home-roasted coffees) I enjoy his curmudgeonly way of wanting to make fun of most of our sacred cows while still showing a morbid fascination with them! Maybe it is merely my own morbid fascination! - Steve
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