I completely agree with Fluffy. _____ *Béria Lima* Wikimedia Portugal <http://wikimedia.pt> (351) 963 953 042
*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que estamos a fazer.* 2011/3/16 ChaoticFluffy <[email protected]> > I also don't have a problem with Erik's POV in particular. My views on this > topic are basically that: > > 1) Yes, some of the men here are being excessively strident and dismissive > in a lot of cases > 2) Yes, I feel less inclined to speak my mind because I know that I'm going > to have to defend every point I make from three or four men telling me how > it's not a problem > 3) No, I don't think the solution is to fork the list. We have to function > with men onwiki, there's no reason to kick them off here > 4) I'm not sure how moderation could be used effectively other than to have > moderators speak to people who are overly dismissive. Having a moderator > approve all posts seems excessive, but I would support, say, an > X-strikes-you're-out policy regarding belittling or dismissive behavior > 5) I don't think it's constructive to require the men to justify themselves > to us or the list. If they're here, they're here because they want to work > on the gender gap. That said... > 6) I don't know how many more ways we women can tell you guys that some of > you are coming across as obnoxious. I'm sorry if that offends you (mostly > because I'm a woman and I've been trained to be sorry if I offend people, > hey look how that works), but YOU ARE. Please accept that this is happening, > it's making the women unhappy, and we'd like you to think before you speak > from now on. > 7) Please do NOT immediately protest that you feel like the mean feminist > women are trying to oppress you by telling you all this. Feel like we're > snap-judging your statements? Feel like we're treating you as your gender > rather than yourself, and unfairly so? Feel like we're just not listening to > the points you're trying to make? WELCOME TO OUR WORLD AS WOMEN. > > -Fluff > > > On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 5:18 PM, Nepenthe <[email protected]>wrote: > >> Unless Erik has alter egos posting here, I didn't have any problems with >> *his* comments. I find the idea that men and women are automatically >> equal participants on a list like this a bit naive, but it's not offensive. >> >> On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 4:04 PM, George Herbert <[email protected] >> > wrote: >> >>> On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Laura Hale <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >[...] >>> > Erik's comment made me feel decidedly uncomfortable. On a list >>> dedicated to >>> > helping increase the female participation rates on Wikipedia, Erik >>> basically >>> > said: WOMENS! THEY IS DISCRIMINATING AGAINST ME! If I went to some >>> women's >>> > communities and I posted Erik's comment (and comments of other male >>> posters) >>> > with the context of these comments being said on a list dedicated to >>> > increasing female participation rates... >>> > >>> > ... well, you'd potentially have a mob involved. This effort? It >>> would >>> > appear extremely sexist. (The large male involvement, the >>> defensiveness of >>> > men regaridng their participation contribute to this image.) That >>> these >>> > sexist comments are coming from the Deputy Director of WMF? It makes >>> this >>> > worst because it is sexism coming from inside the institution. >>> > >>> > If you and Erik want to belong, that's great. It should be purely in >>> > support roles: Women say they are doing this project and need help. >>> WMF >>> > officials step in and say we can help this way. If this was the >>> general >>> > mode of male participation on the list, of specific support offered in >>> > response to specific requests, male involvement would be less >>> problematic. >>> >>> >>> I would like to hear more from other women here on your impressions of >>> and responses to Erik's comments. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> -george william herbert >>> [email protected] >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Gendergap mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Gendergap mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Gendergap mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap > >
_______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list [email protected] https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
