Jon Scott Stevens typed the following on 04:22 PM 1/6/2002 -0800 >on 1/6/02 3:46 PM, "Kief Morris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Although I haven't been participating, I've been following this discussion, >> and would like to donate my 30,000 Turkish Lira (roughly $0.02 at today's >> rates). > >Yes, everyone has an opinion and it is easy to express, but no one stands up >to actually make anything of it. So, therefore, the opinion is actually >worthless (ie: $0.00).
I'm sorry you feel that way Jon, but I don't entirely see that you're making anything of your opinions either. Not to disrespect your contributions to Jakarta, but if we're discussing what's wrong with Jakarta, what's your solution? So far the most concrete solution I've seen from you is that Geir or Ceki would make a better PMC than Sam, presumably because they would govern with a more iron fist. So, if that's what you want, do something about it, you're a PMC member, call for a vote. Otherwise, what do you suggest be done? What exactly *is* the problem with Jakarta from your POV? My interpretation of your comments is that Jakarta needs to be more tightly managed (more Cathedral than Bazaar?) I see this as more of a philosophical problem: some people prefer a more loosely knit organization, consensus rather than command, some prefer a more tightly run ship. You say that the current management philosophy has sunk the ship, Jakarta is a big failure, etc., but what *exactly* has gone wrong? - Code standards are not being enforced. An issue, maybe, but IMO not something that has killed the project, I can't see that it's had a negative effect on the quality of the code or its success in the industry: it's just untidy. And I think it's perfectly correctible within the current regime. Somebody who doesn't like it can implement the system Sam suggested to monitor and nag code formatting. If nobody can be arsed to implement that, it can't be that big a problem, can it? - Duplication of code (logging, validation, etc.) Partly a philosophical problem. As Craig says, diversity is good. On the other hand, maybe Jakarta should present a clear, unified interface to its users. I have to straddle the fence here, (sorry, I'm failing to make something again), and say I agree that Jakarta could be better, but I don't think a more dictatorial central command would achieve that. For example, you suggest Sam should "take authority and mandate" documentation requirements. Why not propose it, and have the community agree on it? If the community doesn't want to do it, Sam or someone else imposing rules from on high isn't going to make them do it. I can see your frustration - there are lots of things like the above issues that you would like to see changed, and if the only way to make them happen is for an interested person to make it so, then you're faced with the alternatives of doing it yourself (and you already do a lot of shit, and apparently on the edge of burning yourself out), or seeing it not get done. Having someone else take charge and impose order probably seems like the ideal solution. But if someone were to actually do that at Jakarta, the suspect the results would be massive defections, and a severe shrinking of the project. A laissez-faire community can tolerate people who want more order, but an authoritarian regime can't tolerate those who want more freedom. Maybe defections of those who don't want a tightly run ship would suit you, Jakarta would be reduced to a smaller, more easily managed project, more like the old days, perhaps. So I'm still not contributing anything to this. Why not? Because Jakarta as it exists suits my needs very well. I'm always finding more useful stuff in Jakarta, and although there are rough edges - build processes aren't consistent, and it does occasionally annoy me to have to install a different package for logging or such - for the most part, these things are much more consistent than what I find on sourceforge. If I can find a Jakarta package that does what I need, I don't usually care if what's on sourceforge is better, I'll use the Jakarta version because it shares the build processes, package dependencies, and process for contributing changes, that I'm used to. The sourceforge projects I've dabbled with just aren't put together the way I like. So, that's my $0.00 this time around (that's about 10,000 Turkish Lira today). Kief -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
