> So, that's my $0.00 this time around (that's about 10,000 Turkish > Lira today).
I would give at least 2 Euros for this one! =:o) Couldn't say it better... or I would have done it before! =:o) Have fun, Paulo Gaspar > -----Original Message----- > From: Kief Morris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 1:30 AM > > Jon Scott Stevens typed the following on 04:22 PM 1/6/2002 -0800 > >on 1/6/02 3:46 PM, "Kief Morris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >> Although I haven't been participating, I've been following > this discussion, > >> and would like to donate my 30,000 Turkish Lira (roughly $0.02 > at today's > >> rates). > > > >Yes, everyone has an opinion and it is easy to express, but no > one stands up > >to actually make anything of it. So, therefore, the opinion is actually > >worthless (ie: $0.00). > > I'm sorry you feel that way Jon, but I don't entirely see that > you're making > anything of your opinions either. Not to disrespect your contributions to > Jakarta, but if we're discussing what's wrong with Jakarta, what's your > solution? So far the most concrete solution I've seen from you is that > Geir or Ceki would make a better PMC than Sam, presumably because > they would govern with a more iron fist. So, if that's what you want, do > something about it, you're a PMC member, call for a vote. Otherwise, > what do you suggest be done? > > What exactly *is* the problem with Jakarta from your POV? My > interpretation > of your comments is that Jakarta needs to be more tightly managed (more > Cathedral than Bazaar?) I see this as more of a philosophical > problem: some > people prefer a more loosely knit organization, consensus rather > than command, > some prefer a more tightly run ship. You say that the current management > philosophy has sunk the ship, Jakarta is a big failure, etc., but > what *exactly* > has gone wrong? > > - Code standards are not being enforced. An issue, maybe, but IMO > not something > that has killed the project, I can't see that it's had a > negative effect on the > quality of the code or its success in the industry: it's just > untidy. And I think it's > perfectly correctible within the current regime. Somebody who > doesn't like it > can implement the system Sam suggested to monitor and nag code > formatting. > If nobody can be arsed to implement that, it can't be that big > a problem, can it? > > - Duplication of code (logging, validation, etc.) Partly a > philosophical problem. As Craig > says, diversity is good. On the other hand, maybe Jakarta > should present a clear, > unified interface to its users. > > I have to straddle the fence here, (sorry, I'm failing to make > something again), and > say I agree that Jakarta could be better, but I don't think a > more dictatorial central > command would achieve that. For example, you suggest Sam should > "take authority > and mandate" documentation requirements. Why not propose it, and have the > community agree on it? If the community doesn't want to do it, > Sam or someone > else imposing rules from on high isn't going to make them do it. > > I can see your frustration - there are lots of things like the > above issues that > you would like to see changed, and if the only way to make them happen is > for an interested person to make it so, then you're faced with > the alternatives > of doing it yourself (and you already do a lot of shit, and > apparently on the > edge of burning yourself out), or seeing it not get done. Having > someone else > take charge and impose order probably seems like the ideal solution. > > But if someone were to actually do that at Jakarta, the suspect > the results would > be massive defections, and a severe shrinking of the project. A > laissez-faire > community can tolerate people who want more order, but an authoritarian > regime can't tolerate those who want more freedom. > > Maybe defections of those who don't want a tightly run ship would > suit you, Jakarta > would be reduced to a smaller, more easily managed project, more > like the old > days, perhaps. > > So I'm still not contributing anything to this. Why not? Because > Jakarta as it > exists suits my needs very well. I'm always finding more useful > stuff in Jakarta, > and although there are rough edges - build processes aren't > consistent, and it > does occasionally annoy me to have to install a different package > for logging > or such - for the most part, these things are much more > consistent than what I > find on sourceforge. If I can find a Jakarta package that does > what I need, I don't > usually care if what's on sourceforge is better, I'll use the > Jakarta version > because it shares the build processes, package dependencies, and process > for contributing changes, that I'm used to. The sourceforge > projects I've dabbled > with just aren't put together the way I like. > > So, that's my $0.00 this time around (that's about 10,000 Turkish > Lira today). > > Kief > > > -- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
