"Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> What I said was "but I believe that this group (as noted on the members
>> meeting this Tuesday) is giving away committer privileges a little bit too
>> easily"... I don't think that sound like "this is a resolution passed by
>> members" or "this is a guideline given at that meeting"...
>>
>> To me it sounds like what happened: we were talking about what it does take
>> for one person to become a committer and/or a member, expectations and
>> bars... That's it... If I was misunderstood, well, sorry...
>
> I understand, I still think thats something that if you are a voting
> committer of the Tomcat dev group you should -1 and argue your point
> there.
That's what I did... I posted my -1 over there, detailed why, and I'm
waiting for someone to write me back something about it... So far, nothing
worth making me change my vote (meaning, nothing more than what was already
there).
> I do not think the PMC should override the decision of the
> Tomcat group simply because you disagree with them.
No, my vote is binding... It's not a majority... I don't need the PMC to
block the thing from happening... They might need the PMC to unblock the
situation since I'm a stubborn donkey! :)
> I feel that the
> Tomcat guys have been at this awhile and if you trust them to be on the
> server, well then I guess you trust them to decide who should be on the
> server.
I trust _some_ of them on the server, as I believe not all of them trust me
(talking about code)... The only thing that _noone_ yet wrote to me on the
tomcat list saying "no, you should change your vote in a +1 or a 0 because
and because" makes me feel that (probably) I was right...
Actually on the same topic, few other people raised my same concern and
agreed (although not posting another -1 vote)... We're all civilized and
stuff :) :) :) :)
>> It is of general interest (IMO) because becoming a committer entitles you
>> not only to a little peaceful heaven in your own little project, but
>> entitles you (and, frankly, obliges you) to be a part of the Jakarta
>> Community at large. You will be given (for example) access to the
>> jakarta-commons CVS repo (if that didn't change lately), it entitles you to
>> put your name on the website and to elect the PMC.
>
> I regard that as "enfranchisement" in the federation or confederation
> that is Jakarta. If the Tomcat community trusts your judgement enough
> to make you a voting committer in that project, and Jakarta trusts the
> Tomcat community enough to make it a member project, then you hence are
> enfranchised in the federal or confederal (sp?) union that is Jakarta.
I normally trust the my co-committers on Tomcat, yes. Best coders I've seen
on this planet (of course apart notable exceptions, but that's another
story). But trusting them doesn't need to mean that I'm going to jump of a
cliff if they all do it, right?
The only information I have to vote +1 for this guy on MY project (tomcat)
are a handful of email, and 3 weeks of history... I'm sorry, but I need to
know someone before I can honestly say "he's my buddy and I want to have him
on my project"
>> And at large, it entitles you to have an @apache.org email address, to have
>> access to our live servers, entitles you to be a part of the whole Apache
>> family...
>>
> you're point being?
???? My point being that there's something behind having a name on the CVS
"avail" file and an entry in /etc/passwd... :)
>> I'm sorry, but I believe that any time a new committer is made, we _need_ to
>> put some thought in what we're "giving away", we're not just letting a guy
>> commit to our CVS server...
>
> And I don't disagree with you. Its a "states rights" argument. You're
> questioning whether this community has the right to bring someone into
> the inner circle of the community. I say its their right. Yes it
> affects us all, but it is their right as a project to do so.
Indeed... It is. I'm not arguing with that. I wouldn't do it for POI (for
example), I trust your judgment, as a committer, that you will only let
other good people in our community... As you trust me to bring only good
people in the community, right?
Now, I seriously don't know the guy we're supposed to vote in, really, and
FWIW, he should be working with me on my same codebase... You see the point?
I don't know if he's a good person for your (and mine) community...
> Its like if you have a child, he'll likely be accepted as a citizen of
> the country that you are a citizen of, yet your countrymen probably are
> not consulted in the process, though it has an affect on them. I regard
> that as freedom.
Indeed.. But I was _asked_ to vote him in... You see my point? I trust you
for who you let in thru POI...
> The POI project has been hard to give folks commit access and soft for
> others. Its been up to the judgement of the committers. Sometimes
> we've been easier on some because they fit well into the community and
> were working on an essential piece of the project, other times we've not
> been so easy (code quality concerns, importance of a feature to the
> community). We've done so with the consent of our Advisor and with
> occasional (all positive) input from other members of the greater
> Jakarta community, but with next to absolute freedom. We've executed
> this with care and always stressed the importance of the agreement and I
> think that is the trust instilled in us as a project. I'd hate to see
> that taken away from Tomcat.
>
> I've seen other project be more careless, its up to you to inform them
> of the magnitude of the situation, not argue that their rights should be
> restricted.
>
> I think you should argue your case on tomcat-dev and maybe see if others
> will follow. I don't think its appropriate to argue it here, or more
> accurately, I feel strongly that no action should be taken outside of
> the Tomcat community on this issue.
Oh no, Andy... I'm sorry, I think you misunderstood... I am not asking
anyone to override anything... I _was_ asked to vote, I voted -1 for my
reasons, because I AM a tomcat committer... Hope that clears it :)
Pier
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