"Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> That's what I did... I posted my -1 over there, detailed why, and I'm
>> waiting for someone to write me back something about it... So far, nothing
>> worth making me change my vote (meaning, nothing more than what was already
>> there).
>
> So that means its vetoed...what's your beef?
Andy, not everyone grew up in Texas! :) I don't eat beef anymore (you know
mad-cow disease and smallpox in the UK)
>> No, my vote is binding... It's not a majority... I don't need the PMC to
>> block the thing from happening... They might need the PMC to unblock the
>> situation since I'm a stubborn donkey! :)
>>
> I do not think the PMC should intervene just because the others
> disagree. This looks like an issue that is totally restricted to the
> Tomcat community. I don't understand the issue. The system is working.
> . .why raise a fuss elsewhere. You have an issue with the standards and
> you've vetoed the committership. This seems to me to be exactly what is
> supposed to happen...
Because it is the very first time that someone -1s a new committer. I've
never seen it happening, and I want more feedback from all the different
possible sources ever...
I CCed members because I esteem the judgement and knowledge of every single
one of them and I had _very_ good feedback from them, I CCed PMC because I'm
utterly stupid and still I don't remember to use general@ for
trivial/crossproject matters (and I welcome Costin's correction in
forwarding it to the appropriate list)...
>From general@ I want feedback as well, we're talking about it, several
people responded, so I'm trying to challenge my own -1 with comments not
only from the restricted group of Tomcat...
>> I trust _some_ of them on the server, as I believe not all of them trust me
>> (talking about code)... The only thing that _noone_ yet wrote to me on the
>> tomcat list saying "no, you should change your vote in a +1 or a 0 because
>> and because" makes me feel that (probably) I was right...
>>
>> Actually on the same topic, few other people raised my same concern and
>> agreed (although not posting another -1 vote)... We're all civilized and
>> stuff :) :) :) :)
>>
> So the system works! Good news!
I still don't follow....
>> I normally trust the my co-committers on Tomcat, yes. Best coders I've seen
>> on this planet (of course apart notable exceptions, but that's another
>>
> bzzzt wrong. :-p We sucked up the best coders on the planet for the
> POI project ;-)
I know... We dogs hang around in all the different projects :)
>> story). But trusting them doesn't need to mean that I'm going to jump of a
>> cliff if they all do it, right?
>>
> Right but it should be up to ya'll tomcatters to work out your standards
> amonst yerselves. Thats my only issue.
Nope, because if I vote a committer in, I give him access to the Tomcat CVS
repo, but I also entitle him to vote for the friggin' next PMC, and _YOU_ my
friend, might not like my choice, right?
>> The only information I have to vote +1 for this guy on MY project (tomcat)
>> are a handful of email, and 3 weeks of history... I'm sorry, but I need to
>> know someone before I can honestly say "he's my buddy and I want to have him
>> on my project"
>>
> If I were a tomcat committer I'd vote with you, but I rarely understand
> those Tomcat guys. Who DOES understand those Tomcat guys anyhow ;-).
Certainly I don't ! :)
>>>> And at large, it entitles you to have an @apache.org email address, to have
>>>> access to our live servers, entitles you to be a part of the whole Apache
>>>> family...
>>>>
>>> you're point being?
>>>
>> ???? My point being that there's something behind having a name on the CVS
>> "avail" file and an entry in /etc/passwd... :)
>>
> But its up to the Tomcat community. The system works. No action is
> needed aside from that you've taken on the Tomcat list.
Maybe for _you_, not for _me_... Being utterly stupid, completely
irresponsible, and definitely insecure, I need other people comments, not on
the particular issue of _the_guy_ in se, but on a more general issue on
_why_ I voted that way.
Ok, I should have voted -1 and then raised this all stuff in a _different_
email to general, OK OK, I foobared up once more, but you guys should be
used to it by now...
>>> And I don't disagree with you. Its a "states rights" argument. You're
>>> questioning whether this community has the right to bring someone into
>>> the inner circle of the community. I say its their right. Yes it
>>> affects us all, but it is their right as a project to do so.
>>>
>> Indeed... It is. I'm not arguing with that. I wouldn't do it for POI (for
>> example), I trust your judgment, as a committer, that you will only let
>> other good people in our community... As you trust me to bring only good
>> people in the community, right?
>>
> Right, my question is now why this is being brought to general @ jakarta
> and cross posted when its an internal issue to Tomcat. If we need a
> webpage to give guidence to the communities as to how and when to make
> someone a committer, well thats fine, but I wouldn't like to see the PMC
> tell us who we can and can't make committers based on only what
> information flows up. Those decisions belong rightly to the communities.
Do you realize that when you give access to someone in _your_ community,
you're opening a backdoor that entitles that person _ALSO_ to other
"privileges" and that your decision will or could, at the end, affect other
people that you don't even know?
>> Now, I seriously don't know the guy we're supposed to vote in, really, and
>> FWIW, he should be working with me on my same codebase... You see the point?
>> I don't know if he's a good person for your (and mine) community...
>>
> I totally (based only on the information you've provided) agree. But I
> also think my opinion should be counted as worthless on the topic.
Worthless on the matter of making me change my vote FOR THAT PERSON
SPECIFICALLY, maybe. Worthless to the idea of a better structured and
integrated Jakarta-as-a-whole community? Hardly.
>> Indeed.. But I was _asked_ to vote him in... You see my point? I trust you
>> for who you let in thru POI...
>>
> No, you voted -1. They have a right to try and convince you to change
> you vote, but the issue is decided.
The issue is not decided until the vote ends, and that means 3 days past the
request for vote...
>> Oh no, Andy... I'm sorry, I think you misunderstood... I am not asking
>> anyone to override anything... I _was_ asked to vote, I voted -1 for my
>> reasons, because I AM a tomcat committer... Hope that clears it :)
>>
> So why post to PMC and general etc? No action is needed. I don't cc
> them everytime I vote for a committer, why if I'm voting against? When
> reading this I thought you were campaigning the PMC and general body of
> jakarta to enforce standards on the communities as to who they can and
> can't let be committers. That triggered the Andy alarm as I don't
> really want them to decide for POI or Lucene who we can and can't make
> committers. If I have an issue I'll take it up with said communities
> and not cross post it to general etc.
Just one question, have you ever voted -1 on a committer? (and not just to
you, but to every committer on this list).
Pier
--
[Perl] combines all the worst aspects of C and Lisp: a billion of different
sublanguages in one monolithic executable. It combines the power of C with
the readability of PostScript. [Jamie Zawinski - DNA Lounge - San Francisco]
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