On Tue, Jun 21, 2005 at 10:48:15PM +0200, Sven Neumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> Huh? Is it all over already? That would be a pity.

I won't let you drga me down to that level of discussion. So when you want
to rant about lies and accusations, feel free to do so without me.

> >> I cannot reproduce most of your problems.
> >
> > Which would be? Why does your inability to partly reproduce problems
> > mean that I cannot be taken seriously?
> I simply want you and anyone else who wants to have a discussion on
> the file-chooser to do three things:
> (1) Use the latest GTK+ 2.6 release. Most of the problems that you and
>     others mentioned have been addressed in the meantime and it
>     doesn't really make sense to have a discussion on bugs that are
>     already fixed.

While there are some changes, fundamentally it's the same behaviour as in
2.6.7. It's simply slowing down users who just want to type in paths.

> (2) Take a step back and try to understand the concepts behind the new
>     dialog. There is room for improvement but the overall design is
>     good. It is good because it works for newcomers and it still has a
>     lot to offer to the expert user.

As I told you before: for using the dialogs, it doesn't matter wether the
design is a beauty in itself or wether it is spaghetti code. What counts is
how it works for the user. And the new dialog is still not up to the level
of usefulness as the gtk+-1.0 one, despite your continual claims to the

Yes, this is subjective, but you need to accept that some people have
different workflows and different styles of user interaction, and for some
people, the above statement is true.

> (3) Don't try to advertise the old GtkFileSelection dialog as being
>     the solution that we should revert too.

I didn't. I did advertise the way the old file selection dialog used it's
text entry as the solution for me (and others with similar complaints).

For some reason you really want to misinterpret that again and again, but
I am convinced that enough people have made this clear, so there really
is no reason to imply that those who complain want to revert tot he old

>     That widget sucked badly.

Well, it sucked much less than the current dialog in some important
respects, like text entry and completion.

>     It's main problem was that it was completely unusable for
>     newcomers.

Probably. I admit am not concerned with that.

>     It had exactly one feature to overcome its limitations
>     and that was Tab completion.

That was really great, and was ripped from the users, to be put back step
for step and in a still very suboptimal fashion.

>     Without Tab completion the old dialog
>     was pretty much unusable.

Well, that's quite subjective, but I think it sufficed quite nicely for
the simple task of selecting files. It was no worse than most other file
dialogs around. The new dialogs have many more potentially useful features
(even for me). The pity is that the old "pretty unusable" file dialog was
much more supportive than the current one (again, for me, and at least the
few others who have complained similalry).

I'd take it back everyday, regardless of what it means for other

Now, before you accuse me of asking you to revert the dialog *again*: no,
I did not mean to say that, and I did not say that, if you read closely.

>     The problem here is that Tab completion
>     is not something that people can discover. At least not the larger
>     part of our userbase. So if you want to revert to the old dialog,
>     don't expect to be taken seriously.

Well, well... but the gtk+ people who designed the current dialog vividly
disagree with you on that. After all, the current dialog is full of
features that are not discoverable.

You should explain why you outright refuse to consider tab completion
(I interpret "not taken seriously" as an refusal to seriously consider
something), even though it's part of the current design and despite the fact
that people actualyl complain about discoverability issues with the *new*
file dialogs.

If discoverability of features is the goal of the new dialogs, they
clearly failed.

>     If you insist on being taken seriously with this approach, please
>     show me evidence to back up your claims.

I, and others, did so. I know you want to ignore it (and you do). I just
find it annoying of you to ask or details again and again and the accuse
people of not providing details (or worse). If you want to ignore it
anyways, just say so, so people can stop wasting their time.

It should be *extremely* and *crystal* clear of what people want: a
visible text entry, and tab completion as in the old gtk+ file selector.
There is even code that shows the behaviour.

I don't know what "evidence" you want, "to be taken seriously". Isn't people
arguing for it all the evidence you need?

> So as long as you can try to even consider these three points, we can
> probably have a very interesting discussion and perhaps it might even
> lead to something useful.

I do so all the time. For some reason, you keep ignoring all my efforts,
with weirder and weirder arguments.

                The choice of a
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