Gandhian socialists are no where seen now. So the remark on Lohaite tradition in Indian politics is exciting. Lohia is one of the central figures who attempted to address the caste issue even differing from the Gandhian perspective within the Nationalist thought.
The Congress of Nehru and the CPI equally tried to discredit the Lohaite and also Royist tradition in the Indian political theory. It was not the anti-congressism of Lohiates but Nehruvian dismmissal of Gandhian socialists that was negative. The observation of Damodar Prasad is partially correct. In the post-Mandal period of Caste assertion of Dalits and OBCs, Ambedkar re-gained much prominence which also was earlier discredited by the Communists, Congress and BJP. Ambedkar was far more inspiring and practical for the 'silent revolution" that swept North Indian states. Gandhian politics has not been given due credits with respect to the political changes witnessed in the last two deacdes. Gandhi's spiritual struggle against untouchability and also against capitalism is to be udnerstood in the present political context. It is because of this thinkers like D.R.Nagraj continued with the dialogue between Gandhian and Ambedkarite tradition. On 8/20/08, damodar prasad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Perhaps after the NF-LF govt of VP singh, the socilaist and the Lohaites > have been vanquished. The turns and twists of many of the old JPians like > George Fernandes have discredited socialist moorings of National politics. > Since 90s , Ambedkar thoought has captured the imagination of the dalit > movements and there is a renewed interest in ayyankali and Phule, periyar. > But not much with Lohia. > > Secondly, the coalition politics at the national level also has impacted > the discussion. Lohia is also well-known for his anti-congressism. is that > kind of anit-congressism prevailing? > > Thridly, it was Karpuri Thakur who first went on to implement reservation > in North Indian State. But that reservation model has been overwhelmed by > new dalit caste assertions. > > But that deosn not mean we should not re-engage with Lohia. after saying > all this, I should also add that for me it is not re-visiting Lohia. It is > actually visiting him for the first time but with the present notions of > idenity politics. > > On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 11:30 AM, neelan neelakandan < > [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> >> Recontexualising issues is good. But am not for decontexualising . You can >> go through the thread below and find out in what context i reffered to >> Lohya, And again argue for arguement sake.Then i say just sorry, thats all. >> Neelan >> --- On Wed, 20/8/08, salimtk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> > From: salimtk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > Subject: [GreenYouth] Re: "who is a worker" in Kerala? >> > To: [email protected] >> >> > Date: Wednesday, 20 August, 2008, 10:43 AM >> > ok..but pl dont think that i was trying to twist the topic >> > into Chengara. >> > because it was at the context of Chengara only the issue of >> > revisiting lohya >> > came up. >> > >> > On 8/20/08, neelan neelakandan >> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Sorry, friend. >> > > Neelan >> > > >> > > --- On Wed, 20/8/08, salimtk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > > From: salimtk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > > > Subject: [GreenYouth] Re: "who is a >> > worker" in Kerala? >> > > > To: [email protected] >> > > > Date: Wednesday, 20 August, 2008, 10:17 AM >> > > > but....do u think one is 'free' *if* s/he >> > takes part >> > > > with the powerful (in >> > > > Chengara)? >> > > > >> > > > On 8/20/08, neelan neelakandan >> > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > One is always free not to read or revisit >> > too. >> > > > > Neelan >> > > > > >> > > > > --- On Tue, 19/8/08, salimtk >> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > > > wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > > > From: salimtk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > > > > > Subject: [GreenYouth] Re: "who is >> > a >> > > > worker" in Kerala? >> > > > > > To: [email protected] >> > > > > > Date: Tuesday, 19 August, 2008, 11:25 >> > PM >> > > > > > I'd a thought when dileep came up >> > with the >> > > > question >> > > > > > 'who is a worker in >> > > > > > kerala'. It was like all of us >> > were being >> > > > led to >> > > > > > 'cpim' track of >> > > > > > discussion. It is in the name of >> > > > 'revolution' >> > > > > > 'proletarian' and >> > 'worldwide >> > > > > > workers' they do all these >> > atrocities. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Why we 've to read/revisit marx, >> > ram manohar >> > > > lohya and >> > > > > > all to understand the >> > > > > > cruel situation in Chengara? >> > > > > > >> > > > > > On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 3:32 PM, neelan >> > > > neelakandan < >> > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > I request my young friends to >> > revisit Ram >> > > > Manohar >> > > > > > Lohya, and his class and >> > > > > > > caste concepts. Read him long long >> > back . >> > > > But was too >> > > > > > critical and cynical >> > > > > > > of him those days.I too was young >> > !!! >> > > > > > > Neelan >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > --- On Tue, 19/8/08, C.K. >> > Vishwanath >> > > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > wrote: >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > From: C.K. Vishwanath >> > > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > > > > > > > Subject: [GreenYouth] Re: >> > "who is >> > > > a >> > > > > > worker" in Kerala? >> > > > > > > > To: >> > [email protected] >> > > > > > > > Date: Tuesday, 19 August, >> > 2008, 3:52 PM >> > > > > > > > organised sector is the base >> > of the >> > > > indian >> > > > > > parliamentary >> > > > > > > > left.the sector is >> > shrinking.informal >> > > > sector is >> > > > > > developing >> > > > > > > > very fast and >> > > > self-employment.manufacturing >> > > > > > industry was the >> > > > > > > > base of this left.after the >> > collapse of >> > > > the >> > > > > > manufacturing >> > > > > > > > sector,the traditional base >> > of the >> > > > indian left >> > > > > > had >> > > > > > > > disappered.all the big >> > industrial areas >> > > > of >> > > > > > india(from mumbai >> > > > > > > > to ahmadabad)has later >> > explained the >> > > > phenomenon >> > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > communalism among workers. >> > ak.roy >> > > > explained the >> > > > > > phenomenon >> > > > > > > > from the secular politics of >> > working >> > > > class to the >> > > > > > communal >> > > > > > > > politics of the workers.the >> > classical >> > > > > > capital-labour >> > > > > > > > polarisation has lost its >> > objective >> > > > base.this is >> > > > > > not an >> > > > > > > > indian reality.it is also a >> > world wide >> > > > > > reality.new >> > > > > > > > immaterial labour has totally >> > > > disappered the >> > > > > > traditional >> > > > > > > > working class unity.new >> > consuption >> > > > pattern,life >> > > > > > > > style,atomisation of workers >> > has >> > > > created new >> > > > > > problems in >> > > > > > > > working class politics.the >> > neo-liberal >> > > > capital >> > > > > > assertion >> > > > > > > > pushes the producing sections >> > of the >> > > > society in >> > > > > > avery >> > > > > > > > defensive >> > > > > > > > position. >> > > > > > > > the five class divisions of >> > the >> > > > peasants are so >> > > > > > difficult >> > > > > > > > to understand .the ruruban >> > middle >> > > > class(cpim >> > > > > > analysis) plus >> > > > > > > > plantation sector has become >> > a powerful >> > > > ruling >> > > > > > block in >> > > > > > > > kerala society.it is >> > buldozing any >> > > > furher land >> > > > > > > > redistribution.cpim's >> > base is this >> > > > rurban >> > > > > > middle class. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > --- On Wed, 8/13/08, Dileep >> > Raj >> > > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > > > > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > > From: Dileep Raj >> > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > > > > > > > Subject: [GreenYouth] Re: >> > "who is >> > > > a >> > > > > > worker" in >> > > > > > > > Kerala? >> > > > > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> > > > > > > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED], >> > > > > > [email protected] >> > > > > > > > Date: Wednesday, August 13, >> > 2008, 11:25 >> > > > PM >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > On Marxism: >> > > > > > > > I maintain a distinction >> > between >> > > > critique and >> > > > > > rejection. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > On CPIM : >> > > > > > > > I consider engaging with >> > whoever is >> > > > ready to >> > > > > > engage as >> > > > > > > > important. >> > > > > > > > It is just like engaging in >> > critical >> > > > discussions >> > > > > > with >> > > > > > > > people >> > > > > > > > working in Congress, BJP, >> > Muslim League >> > > > etc. >> > > > > > Nothing less. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > On us: >> > > > > > > > I consider (though I >> > won't claim to >> > > > be >> > > > > > c'lean') >> > > > > > > > engaging >> > > > > > > > in dialogues without >> > > > branding/vulgarising the >> > > > > > opponent / >> > > > > > > > opponent's arguments >> > > > > > > > is pre requisite for the >> > emergence of >> > > > any sort of >> > > > > > > > democracy. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > What is the point in being >> > aggressive >> > > > toward >> > > > > > others who are >> > > > > > > > ready to seriously engage? >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > On the subject line: >> > > > > > > > Will come back tomorrow >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Cheers! >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 11:09 >> > PM, ranju >> > > > radha >> > > > > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > wrote: >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > it s a pity to see that >> > people can so >> > > > > > enthusiastically talk >> > > > > > > > abt marxism in this 21st >> > century. >> > > > > > > > while looking at caste as >> > > > essentialistic, they >> > > > > > forget to >> > > > > > > > de-essentialise class as >> > well. >> > > > > > > > while clamouring against >> > globalisation, >> > > > they >> > > > > > forget that >> > > > > > > > workers of all countries >> > unite has a >> > > > globalising >> > > > > > universal >> > > > > > > > mission..... >> > > > > > > > marxism is a big joke now. do >> > we real >> > > > want to >> > > > > > debate on >> > > > > > > > it.. again and again >> > > > > > > > let us move ahead; dont be >> > stuck in the >> > > > muddy >> > > > > > water of >> > > > > > > > marxism >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > this question :who is a >> > worker? is >> > > > important >> > > > > > > > who is this karshaka >> > thozhilali? >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > class question has erased the >> > Dalits >> > > > from it, and >> > > > > > yet they >> > > > > > > > are denied >> > '"class" >> > > > > > > > within class they are again >> > devoid >> > > > class >> > > > > > status... they are >> > > > > > > > left with caste only >> > > > > > > > why? >> > > > > > > > bz this happened not in 20th >> > century >> > > > London, but >> > > > > > in India. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > caste is again not static; it >> > has >> > > > evolvd into >> > > > > > modern times; >> > > > > > > > class negotiations could not >> > erase >> > > > caste. >> > > > > > > > secular project did not erase >> > religion. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > these homogenising universal >> > grand >> > > > narratives >> > > > > > failes to >> > > > > > > > understand/analyse society. >> > > > > > > > the European academia has >> > accepted this >> > > > aspect. >> > > > > > They are >> > > > > > > > revisiting the question of >> > religion; >> > > > revisiting >> > > > > > > > Enlightenment. >> > > > > > > > my submission is that CPI M >> > is so >> > > > unimportant a >> > > > > > category in >> > > > > > > > this whole discourse >> > > > > > > > it s like a mafia gang only; >> > dont give >> > > > undue >> > > > > > importnace to >> > > > > > > > it. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > and this Gandhian reformatory >> > appraoch >> > > > to CPI M >> > > > > > as shown by >> > > > > > > > some loyal buddies can be >> > helpful 4 V S >> > > > pinarayi >> > > > > > kind to >> > > > > > > > survive some more time, >> > nothing else >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > pavangal nattukare pattichum >> > gundayism >> > > > > > > > kanichum jeevichotte >> > ennanengil >> > > > > > > > pavam marxinu pizhachathu >> > nammalenthinu >> > > > > > edutharadanam!! >> > > > > > > > though people have the right >> > to do >> > > > > > > > so........................but >> > not at >> > > > the cost of >> > > > > > PEOPLE!! >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > On 8/13/08, damodar prasad >> > > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > > > > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Before coming to the Chengara >> > and the >> > > > > > 'worker" >> > > > > > > > projected onto the scene, let >> > me make a >> > > > brief >> > > > > > > > 'presentation". >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > I am not sure about the >> > primacy of one >> > > > category >> > > > > > over >> > > > > > > > the other as I am doubtful >> > about the >> > > > conflation >> > > > > > of the two, >> > > > > > > > let me emphasise, in the >> > current >> > > > socio-political >> > > > > > context >> > > > > > > > when there is an unleashing >> > of social >> > > > energy from >> > > > > > the below. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Secondly, Marxists >> > historians, like >> > > > Kosambi and >> > > > > > Irfan Habib >> > > > > > > > from the Marxist view point >> > > > 'demystified >> > > > > > > > caste" from its >> > essentiaist and >> > > > orinetalist >> > > > > > moorings >> > > > > > > > and also brought to the fore >> > this >> > > > submerged >> > > > > > category from >> > > > > > > > the nationalistic narratives. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Marxists had enagaged with >> > the caste as >> > > > a >> > > > > > category and >> > > > > > > > understood the politcal >> > significance of >> > > > it in the >> > > > > > social >> > > > > > > > transformation. But because >> > of their >> > > > inistence on >> > > > > > modernity >> > > > > > > > and its process of social >> > change, the >> > > > caste was >> > > > > > considered >> > > > > > > > as soemthing to be overcome >> > through >> > > > class >> > > > > > negotiations and >> > > > > > > > thus they understood caste as >> > eroding >> > > > category. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Any anger against CPIM and >> > just based >> > > > on that >> > > > > > debasing >> > > > > > > > Marxism and Marxists from the >> > > > enagagements with >> > > > > > caste I find >> > > > > > > > it as "intellectual >> > > > zhadonovism" ( >> > > > > > this is an >> > > > > > > > oxyMORON and I refer to >> > individual/s >> > > > with same >> > > > > > sort of >> > > > > > > > content whatver their >> > > > 'legitimacy" claim >> > > > > > may bel) >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Caste is also an >> > infrastructure in the >> > > > > > circulation of >> > > > > > > > social energies.Hence >> > > > "valorizing" it >> > > > > > only basing >> > > > > > > > it on the current situation >> > is damaging >> > > > and >> > > > > > disastrous on >> > > > > > > > the long run. This is an >> > essentalizing >> > > > strategy >> > > > > > of identity >> > > > > > > > poltiics which is meant for >> > > > self-seeking purpose >> > > > > > on a >> > > > > > > > long-term gains resisting any >> > changes. >> > > > No >> > > > > > dialogues or >> > > > > > > > negotitaions are permitted in >> > such >> > > > essentalist >> > > > > > > > udnerstandings. This is >> > fasicstic. They >> > > > may >> > > > > > convienently >> > > > > > > > keep mum on Hindutva and >> > charge against >> > > > Marxism >> > > > > > form their >> > > > > > > > own stupid understanding of >> > Marxism. >> > > > > > Ineteretignly, also >> > > > > > > > invoke Marxist narrative of >> > final >> > > > salvation >> > > > > > sometimes to >> > > > > > > > drive their point. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Indian Communist party could >> > never >> > > > resolve and >> > > > > > engage with >> > > > > > > > caste issues. This is not >> > soemthing >> > > > new. In >> > > > > > Chengara, there >> > > > > > > > is an attempt to Privelege >> > the worker >> > > > over the >> > > > > > dispossessed >> > > > > > > > dalits and perhaps many of >> > them >> > > > 'rural >> > > > > > > > proletariats". CPM has >> > been doign >> > > > this with >> > > > > > all new >> > > > > > > > mobilizations. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > But in particular case of >> > Chengara , >> > > > harrison >> > > > > > goondas >> > > > > > > > appear on the scene as >> > workers and >> > > > demeaning the >> > > > > > very notion >> > > > > > > > of worker itself. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > On 8/13/08, Dileep Raj >> > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Let me rephrase the question >> > in a new >> > > > thread. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Who are "workers' in >> > Kerala? >> > > > > > > > How come the landless people >> > in >> > > > Chengara are >> > > > > > > > viewed as 'lesser' >> > beings in >> > > > comparison >> > > > > > with the >> > > > > > > > valorised "worker' >> > identity? >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > How does the assertion of >> > Dalit >> > > > political >> > > > > > identity >> > > > > > > > problematise the central >> > category of >> > > > > > > > Marixian politics? >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > I feel there are histotrical, >> > political >> > > > and >> > > > > > > > historico;political answers >> > to this >> > > > question, >> > > > > > > > partly submerged in research >> > papers, >> > > > partly >> > > > > > inherent in >> > > > > > > > current political practice >> > and thought. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > for instance, Sanal >> > Mohan's anlyses >> > > > of >> > > > > > slavery in >> > > > > > > > Kerala enquires about the >> > invisibility >> > > > of slave >> > > > > > experineces >> > > > > > > > in and athrough >> > > > > > > > communist/ Marxist discourses >> > > > > > > > -- >> > > > > > > > Dileep R I thuravoor >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > -- >> > > > > > > > Dileep R I thuravoor >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Unlimited freedom, unlimited >> > storage. >> > > > Get it >> > > > > > now, on >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> > http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > Connect with friends all over the >> > world. Get >> > > > Yahoo! India Messenger at >> > > > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/?wm=n/ >> > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > Download prohibited? No problem. CHAT from any >> > browser, without >> > > download. Go to http://in.webmessenger.yahoo.com/ >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> > >> >> Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on >> http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Green Youth Movement" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/greenyouth?hl=en-GB -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
