Clive, if this is with Eloquence we've finally duplicated problems
specific to that synthesizer that we hope to resolve at some point in
the future. What synthesizer are you using?
At 03:56 PM 12/7/2008, you wrote:
There are some good points here, apart from you people attacking each other.
The key point I want to make right now though is that I am one of
these people who has a dollar each way, in that I find I need to use
both JAWS and Window-Eyes for different tasks. I use Windows Vista,
and I find that both JAWS and Window-Eyes have a tendency to stop
speaking when there is some sort of system error, which is most
frustrating when you depend on your screen reader to know what is
going on. Narrator is the obvious fallback in that situation, but
there has been a change in Windows Vista that I haven't got to the
bottom of, but it seems that Narrator doesn't run automatically if
it thinks a screen reader is already running. In any case, the hot
key that used to bring up Narrator now brings up the accessibility
dialog and you have to choose Narrator, and Narrator doesn't speak
automatically if a screen reader is running. So in my experience,
it is no longer correct to say that Narrator is really usable as a
fallback screen reader if your primary reader fails.
I have had better results with NVDA as a fall back screen reader.
To me, the most important thing to fix in Window-Eyes is its lack of
responsiveness in Windows Vista. I have chalenged GW about this but
their only response was to lecture me on the subject of software
speech and their belief that the only way to get really snappy
speech is to use an external synthesizer. This is just not
true. JAWS can respond really quickly in Vista, but if you really
want snappy speech, listen to NVDA. It is super quick to respond,
even in Vista. The sluggishness of Window-Eyes in Vista just makes
you feel like you are walking through a swamp. GW is falling into
the trap of being fixated on their own view of what works and what
doesn't, and it is only those users that are prepared to look
elsewhere that can really tell the truth.
However we must remember also that nobody makes the perfect screen
reader. All screen readers nowadays are making increasing use of
the operating system objects. I suspect some of the bugs we
experience, not just in Window-Eyes, are actually in the underlying
operating system objects and not in the screen readers themselves.
To me, the strategic future in access technology is for OS vendors
such as Microsoft to fully build accessibility features into the
underlying OS from the ground up, and ensure that these features
work properly. They should also include a basic screen reader (more
than Narrator) directly in the OS. Then let the screen reader
vendors compete only on features and price. While I find I keep
paying two separate companies for screen reader developments, most
of what they develop I don't actually use. But I have no choice.
While I find I curse both GW and FS at times, the real target of our
emotions must be Microsoft. Remember that the screen reader vendors
are trying to be the solution to the problem whem the problem really
is created by Microsoft. Microsoft has come a long way in its
commitment to accessibility, but we must hold them and other primary
vendors accountable for building accessibility features into their
products from the ground up.
-----Original message-----
From: "jim grimsby Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Sam bushman'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
CC: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Questions and thoughts about the direction of Window Eyes
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 11:57:20 -0800
First you don't have the right to tell me how to respond to a message that
you post to this list or any other unless you are the list owner. Now we
have that out of the way I have provided you with a solution to the problem
you have razed. I have every right to my view that we don't need one thing
and need another. If you're not interested in my views that is very well
and good. As for protecting gw micro rest assured when I got a major
problem that cannot be worked around they will hear about it. the problem
you site below can be worked around as I described. Now why not try these
work arounds see if they work for you? If they don't let us know why they
don't so we can see if we can come up with a better solution.
From: Sam bushman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:40 AM
To: jim grimsby Jr.
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Questions and thoughts about the direction of Window Eyes
Please only write messages to the list regarding this message if you are
interested
in adding something to the discussion.
If you are just going to tell me ... we already have this and we don't need
that
... I frankly don't want to hear it.
If you are going to try to protect GW don't waste your time, I am not
attacking them.
I am trying to see if we as a group can productively focus on things we need
the
most in our access solution.
Thanks so much.
----- Original Message -----
From: jim grimsby Jr. <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 'Sam bushman' <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 12:32 PM
Subject: RE: Questions and thoughts about the direction of Window Eyes
The first problem with this request is this. if they give you a list of all
the things they are working on ahead of time they have given it to fs. And
everyone else who is making screen access software. Now for your little
speech program what would be the point? If we stops speaking you know that
there is a problem with windows itself or we has crashed. Just start
narrator and see what the problem is. This is why narrator is here in the
first place. Have you even tried the kill win-eyes utility it removes we
from memory so you can restart it. now that is when we itself stops
working. There is another script called relaunch window-eyes it works now
and you press the command when a program stops working window-eyes restarts
and you are then able to read the windows error dialog. What you really
want is a program to watch window-eyes see when it has crashed and restart
it for you. or when one of these little error windows come up just restart
we and read it.
Tell such time as a program is created to do this use the solutions
provided.
From: Sam bushman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:17 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Questions and thoughts about the direction of Window Eyes
Hi all,
It seems to me that there have been several people on this list that have
had problems with the latest version of WE.
I have been one of them at times.
Others seem to have the product work perfectly out of the box and haven't
experienced any of the troubles that others have.
I know GW is doing there very best to duplicate and resolve any issues that
arise.
I do think 7.01 is much more stable and responsive than 7.0 was and that is
a good thing.
I also agree that if you turn scripting off ... the software becomes much
more stable on some machines as well.
I realize that each machine is different ... has different software
installed etc and that truly has a huge affect on how WE works because there
are so many variables involved.
Some have turned to attacking the GW staff and others have completely been
unwilling to even install / use 7.x.
Still others seem to be doing great with out problems to speak of.
Last there are most of us who live with the short comings of the software
and do our best in spite of it all.
No matter what camp you are in ... I believe that it would be good to set
aside our differences and see if we could all come together and work towards
solutions.
Several have mentioned that we need a tiny speech program to run when WE
loses speech.
That is what I have pushed for with out any real response.
I know that GW has not been willing in the past to discuss features that
will be included in the next versions of WE.
To some degree I understand this because it's hard to know in advance what
issues may crop up etc.
However, I do believe that a general priority list may be helpful.
For example we have been told that after 7.0 they will rewrite browse mode.
But, we have no idea when ... 7.5 9.0 11.6 etc?
We do know it's coming but, that's all we know.
We have no idea how many changes / features are before this one.
I would like to ask GW Micro on this list if they will provide a general
idea of what they are working on and in general in what order and a loose
general time frame for completion.
I bought an SMA just before the release of 7.0 to decrease costs and to make
sure I received a CD for each release.
But, none of the features I really need appeared in 7.x.
I got a cd for 7.0 but, now that 7.01 is out I don't even have a cd for the
latest install.
So, to make things clear ... I am not even sure what I am doing running
7.01.
In general we got the following in 7.x.
1. Scripting.
2. Some bugs fixed but, I am not sure we should be paying for bug fixes.
3. Itunes support.
I don't need any of the above.
Now the things I really need and things I was hoping for in 7.x (I really
hope for in the next release but, have no idea if we will get).
These are in no particular order.
1. Losing speech kept to a minumim.
This problem has become worse not better over time.
2. Stable fixed browse mode.
Needs to let me switch back and forth between programs that use it with out
problems.
3. JAVA Support.
4. Support for 64Bit OS.
We are truly at a disadvantage when we go computer shopping with out it.
Is there any way to develop a list of items of most importance?
Is there any way to have the list members help GW understand our wants and
needs as the software moves forward with further development?
Setting aside our own personal needs can we as a group agree on what things
should be at the top of the list?
Is there any way for the GW staff to give us some idea of what criteria they
use in deciding on what the next feature set will be?
Is some one on the GW staff willing to create this list with all of our
input?
Please only write messages to the list regarding this message if you are
interested in adding something to the discussion.
If you are just going to tell me ... we already have this and we don't need
that ... I frankly don't want to hear it.
If you are going to try to protect GW don't waste your time, I am not
attacking them.
I am trying to see if we as a group can productively focus on things we need
the most in our access solution.
Thanks so much.
Sam Bushman
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--
Michael D. Lawler
Voice 260-489-3671
Fax 260-489-2608
Internet mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
web http://www.gwmicro.com
ftp ftp://ftp.gwmicro.com
GW Micro, Inc.,
Development Liaison and Technical Support Supervisor
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