I already did :) But i only said that anything that they release, the more documented the better, and if it's complete with diagrams and all would help everyone :)
2009/1/13 Heimo Stieg <[email protected]> > If you want an UML diagram...why dont you just create one with VS? > > ZuM schrieb: > > I agree. Even and overview of the architecture of the engine would make > it > > more easily understandable. > > If they just released a UML Diagram of the classes, indicating where they > > are used, from where they inherent and etc... would really help, and it > > should not be dificult to make, just run a program to do it. > > > > 2009/1/13 Nuno Silva <[email protected]> > > > > > >> Aditya: By documentation i mean documentation over architecture and per > >> function/class, that would make the whole thing far more understandable, > >> not > >> just a generic overview of the engine. > >> > >> On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 1:54 AM, Aditya Gaddam <[email protected] > >> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> I actually don't see how a general overview could really help other > than > >>> maybe the first few steps. And with the source engine, those first few > >>> steps > >>> are usually fairly easy to figure out anyway. But when you do figure > >>> > >> those > >> > >>> steps out yourself, you find little trinkets of code and patterns that > >>> > >> you > >> > >>> keep seeing and you remember them. Trudging through the code is not > fun. > >>> > >> I > >> > >>> have been doing it for the last 2 weeks for my mod. But you learn a lot > >>> more > >>> by just going to a class and going willy nilly with the "Go to > >>> > >> Definition" > >> > >>> and "Go to Declaration" features in visual studio (right click on a > class > >>> or > >>> variable name) than by looking at some overarching structure document > >>> (which > >>> would eventually need its own documentation). > >>> > >>> One thing I would love to see improvements to, is Hammer. Mostly > >>> > >> stability > >> > >>> wise. I am not a big fan of the program just quietly shutting down > >>> > >> without > >> > >>> warning with changes unsaved. Sometimes hitting save crashes hammer - > >>> umm... > >>> yes. > >>> > >>> But other than that - I like source. It is very hacky. But it is also > >>> > >> very > >> > >>> very malleable. They have given us a giant chunk of code to mash around > >>> > >> and > >> > >>> I thank them for it. > >>> > >>> Cheers, > >>> Aditya > >>> > >>> On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 2:27 PM, Nuno Silva < > [email protected] > >>> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> To me, the Source engine is a great engine, that's pretty obvious > since > >>>> > >>> it > >>> > >>>> can produce great performance while keeping geometry and graphics > >>>> > >>> detailed > >>> > >>>> enough. > >>>> > >>>> However, the "public" access to the engine, Source SDK, could be much > >>>> better > >>>> if only there was documentation, as said previously. > >>>> > >>>> Documentation may seem like it's not worth it to some of you, but it > >>>> > >> can > >> > >>>> *really* make a difference. There's a reason i never make Mods. Not > >>>> > >> that > >> > >>>> it's "too hard", it's just that i dont have the time to spend weeks > >>>> figuring > >>>> out how stuff works. > >>>> > >>>> On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 6:16 PM, Acolyte Of the Milkman < > >>>> [email protected]> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> from what I've seen, each year the source engine becomes more easily > >>>>> > >>>> usable > >>>> > >>>>> and feature rich. Valve takes the iterative process of asking "what > >>>>> > >> do > >> > >>> we > >>> > >>>>> need for this game? is it going to benefit the game? and can the > >>>>> > >> users > >> > >>> on > >>> > >>>>> lower end machines handle it?" when they're creating new features. > >>>>> > >>>> whereas > >>>> > >>>>> in the UT engine they have (literally) everything and the kitchen > >>>>> > >> sink! > >> > >>>> it > >>>> > >>>>> supports 3 different types of shadowing, dynamic shadow volumes, > >>>>> > >>> dynamic > >>> > >>>>> shadow mapping (which source supports now), and light maps (source > >>>>> > >>>> supports > >>>> > >>>>> radiosity, which is a more realistic method of lighting a room > >>>>> > >>>> statically), > >>>> > >>>>> a whole slew of other graphical effects, and a in house scripting > >>>>> > >>>> language > >>>> > >>>>> it has an abundance of other features. > >>>>> > >>>>> the Unreal Engine is superior to source in every way possible. It's > >>>>> > >>>> easier > >>>> > >>>>> to develop for, very pretty, and has many more features than source. > >>>>> > >>>>> whoever said documentation isn't need must be completely crazy! > >>>>> Documentation for an engine should never be left on the back burner, > >>>>> > >>> it's > >>> > >>>>> an > >>>>> absolute must! In the software development world it's much easier to > >>>>> > >>> sit > >>> > >>>>> someone down and make them read documentation AND THEN fiddle with > >>>>> > >> the > >> > >>>>> source code with a better understanding of how it works V.S making > >>>>> > >> them > >> > >>>>> fiddle around with the engine till they understand exactly what the > >>>>> > >>> hell > >>> > >>>> is > >>>> > >>>>> going on. > >>>>> > >>>>> however, Source has much more potential for the future. Each year > >>>>> > >> Valve > >> > >>>>> increases its feature set and makes it more easier to develop for. I > >>>>> > >>> just > >>> > >>>>> hope their tools catch up as well. > >>>>> > >>>>> Hammer should become Open source, or at least gain the ability to > >>>>> > >> have > >> > >>>>> plugins. A very large number of people in the Torque community use > >>>>> > >> 3.4 > >> > >>>> for > >>>> > >>>>> mapping and I can imagine they would like to extend what they can do > >>>>> > >> in > >> > >>>>> it/get 4.0. > >>>>> > >>>>> -------------------------------------------------- > >>>>> From: "Olly" <[email protected]> > >>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 8:32 AM > >>>>> To: "Discussion of Half-Life Programming" < > >>>>> > >>>> [email protected] > >>>> > >>>>> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Technical Design Document or Quick Reference > >>>>> > >>>> Guide? > >>>> > >>>>>> Microsoft already tried to compete with STEAM, it was called Games > >>>>>> > >>> for > >>> > >>>>>> windows - Live... and it sucked. Again they tried to charge a > >>>>>> > >>>>> subscription > >>>>> > >>>>>> which failed epicly. > >>>>>> I much prefer engines that are written in C++, they are much MUCH > >>>>>> > >>> more > >>> > >>>>>> powerful than having to 1) Learn the syntax/structure of the > >>>>>> > >> in-house > >> > >>>>>> language 2) Hack your way round doing the simplest of things that > >>>>>> > >> you > >> > >>>>>> could > >>>>>> do with open source C libraries. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> 2009/1/11 Nick <[email protected]> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> I am not Valve, I do not work for Valve, but I like Valve, and > >>>>>>> > >> like > >> > >>> a > >>> > >>>>>>> good friend I like to point out where I think they go wrong. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> There is no such technical design document for source, available > >>>>>>> > >> to > >> > >>>>>>> the modders, but I suspect there is such a design document if you > >>>>>>> > >>> pay > >>> > >>>>>>> for a license. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Valve is a good company, and has excellent people. But the top > >>>>>>> > >> games > >> > >>>>>>> released for source have been made exclusively by and for Valve. > >>>>>>> > >> The > >> > >>>>>>> source engine is powerful and highly adaptable, if you work for > >>>>>>> > >>> Valve. > >>> > >>>>>>> I think other engines are designed to be easier to understand > >>>>>>> > >>> because > >>> > >>>>>>> the other major game engines are being used by people outside the > >>>>>>> original company. Quake/id and Bioshock/ut3 and america's army/ut3 > >>>>>>> > >>> are > >>> > >>>>>>> some examples I can think of here. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Source engine is powerful if you know how to use it, Valve people > >>>>>>> > >>> are > >>> > >>>>>>> the only ones who know how to use it properly. That isn't going to > >>>>>>> change unless Valve invests heavily in making it more open or > >>>>>>> documenting it more. ( not anytime within the next 3 years). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> UT3 engine is equally powerful, but epic games has gone to great > >>>>>>> lengths to make it easier to use, and highly documented. Also > >>>>>>> > >>> actively > >>> > >>>>>>> encourages scripting instead of forcing everyone to use c++ like > >>>>>>> > >>> valve > >>> > >>>>>>> does. Bioshock/Americas Army/Gears of War 2. Look at the material > >>>>>>> editor that comes with ue3 > >>>>>>> http://hourences.com/book/tutorialsue3mated.htm includes shaders > >>>>>>> > >>> also > >>> > >>>>>>> from almost one and half years ago! > >>>>>>> http://www.unrealtechnology.com/features.php?ref=editor > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I hope valve seriously thinks about open sourcing the tools, > >>>>>>> > >>> formats, > >>> > >>>>>>> and making the engine available on linux. Unless valve thinks it > >>>>>>> > >> can > >> > >>>>>>> exist only by relying on steam sales/distribution. Eventually > >>>>>>> microsoft will make steam obsolete(by creating a steamlike > >>>>>>> > >>> replacement > >>> > >>>>>>> for windows7) or buy valve out entirely, which is probably bad for > >>>>>>> most people working for valve, but good for the owners :P > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 10:29 PM, Walter Gray < > >>>>>>> > >> [email protected] > >> > >>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I want to preface this by saying I know it's probably a kind of > >>>>>>>> > >>>> silly > >>>> > >>>>>>>> thing to be asking for, but on the other hand I feel it would > >>>>>>>> > >>> would > >>> > >>>> be > >>>> > >>>>>>>> stupendously useful. > >>>>>>>> I'm looking for something akin to a Technical Design > >>>>>>>> > >> Document > >> > >>>> for > >>>> > >>>>>>>> the source engine, or at least the parts of it which are > >>>>>>>> > >>> distributed > >>> > >>>>>>>> with the Source SDK. Really, any single document that lays out, > >>>>>>>> > >>> in > >>> > >>>> a > >>>> > >>>>>>>> concise fashion, the general structure of the most commonly used > >>>>>>>> systems, what base classes they use, and enough about how they > >>>>>>>> > >> are > >> > >>>>>>>> supposed to work for someone to start messing with them. It > >>>>>>>> > >> seems > >> > >>>> to > >>>> > >>>>>>>> me > >>>>>>>> that the general approach for mod developers has been to use the > >>>>>>>> > >>>> code > >>>> > >>>>>>>> itself as the documentation and ask the community or check the > >>>>>>>> > >>> wiki > >>> > >>>> if > >>>> > >>>>>>>> they find something they don't understand. This, unfortunately, > >>>>>>>> > >>>> means > >>>> > >>>>>>>> that there's no easy way to get new developers on a team > >>>>>>>> > >> familiar > >> > >>>> with > >>>> > >>>>>>>> the engine, which is what I'm aiming to do. I've looked around, > >>>>>>>> > >>> and > >>> > >>>>>>>> there doesn't seem to be anything like this. Am I missing > >>>>>>>> > >>>> something, > >>>> > >>>>>>>> or > >>>>>>>> does it not exist, and if it doesn't, why not? It seems like > >>>>>>>> > >> it's > >> > >>>> the > >>>> > >>>>>>>> kind of thing that would cut down on a lot of confusion for new > >>>>>>>> > >>> mod > >>> > >>>>>>>> programmers and encourage 3rd party Source development in > >>>>>>>> > >> general. > >> > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > >>>>>>>> > >>>> archives, > >>>> > >>>>>>> please visit: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > >>>>>>> > >>> archives, > >>> > >>>>>>> please visit: > >>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > >>>>>> > >>> archives, > >>> > >>>>>> please visit: > >>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > >>>>> > >> archives, > >> > >>>>> please visit: > >>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > >>>> please visit: > >>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> -- > >>> http://www.pixelfaction.com > >>> AIM:ApeWithABrain > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > >>> please visit: > >>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > >> please visit: > >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > >> > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
