If you want a car...why dont you just create one with metal? On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 9:35 AM, Heimo Stieg <[email protected]> wrote: > If you want an UML diagram...why dont you just create one with VS? > > ZuM schrieb: >> I agree. Even and overview of the architecture of the engine would make it >> more easily understandable. >> If they just released a UML Diagram of the classes, indicating where they >> are used, from where they inherent and etc... would really help, and it >> should not be dificult to make, just run a program to do it. >> >> 2009/1/13 Nuno Silva <[email protected]> >> >> >>> Aditya: By documentation i mean documentation over architecture and per >>> function/class, that would make the whole thing far more understandable, >>> not >>> just a generic overview of the engine. >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 1:54 AM, Aditya Gaddam <[email protected] >>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I actually don't see how a general overview could really help other than >>>> maybe the first few steps. And with the source engine, those first few >>>> steps >>>> are usually fairly easy to figure out anyway. But when you do figure >>>> >>> those >>> >>>> steps out yourself, you find little trinkets of code and patterns that >>>> >>> you >>> >>>> keep seeing and you remember them. Trudging through the code is not fun. >>>> >>> I >>> >>>> have been doing it for the last 2 weeks for my mod. But you learn a lot >>>> more >>>> by just going to a class and going willy nilly with the "Go to >>>> >>> Definition" >>> >>>> and "Go to Declaration" features in visual studio (right click on a class >>>> or >>>> variable name) than by looking at some overarching structure document >>>> (which >>>> would eventually need its own documentation). >>>> >>>> One thing I would love to see improvements to, is Hammer. Mostly >>>> >>> stability >>> >>>> wise. I am not a big fan of the program just quietly shutting down >>>> >>> without >>> >>>> warning with changes unsaved. Sometimes hitting save crashes hammer - >>>> umm... >>>> yes. >>>> >>>> But other than that - I like source. It is very hacky. But it is also >>>> >>> very >>> >>>> very malleable. They have given us a giant chunk of code to mash around >>>> >>> and >>> >>>> I thank them for it. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Aditya >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 2:27 PM, Nuno Silva <[email protected] >>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> To me, the Source engine is a great engine, that's pretty obvious since >>>>> >>>> it >>>> >>>>> can produce great performance while keeping geometry and graphics >>>>> >>>> detailed >>>> >>>>> enough. >>>>> >>>>> However, the "public" access to the engine, Source SDK, could be much >>>>> better >>>>> if only there was documentation, as said previously. >>>>> >>>>> Documentation may seem like it's not worth it to some of you, but it >>>>> >>> can >>> >>>>> *really* make a difference. There's a reason i never make Mods. Not >>>>> >>> that >>> >>>>> it's "too hard", it's just that i dont have the time to spend weeks >>>>> figuring >>>>> out how stuff works. >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 6:16 PM, Acolyte Of the Milkman < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> from what I've seen, each year the source engine becomes more easily >>>>>> >>>>> usable >>>>> >>>>>> and feature rich. Valve takes the iterative process of asking "what >>>>>> >>> do >>> >>>> we >>>> >>>>>> need for this game? is it going to benefit the game? and can the >>>>>> >>> users >>> >>>> on >>>> >>>>>> lower end machines handle it?" when they're creating new features. >>>>>> >>>>> whereas >>>>> >>>>>> in the UT engine they have (literally) everything and the kitchen >>>>>> >>> sink! >>> >>>>> it >>>>> >>>>>> supports 3 different types of shadowing, dynamic shadow volumes, >>>>>> >>>> dynamic >>>> >>>>>> shadow mapping (which source supports now), and light maps (source >>>>>> >>>>> supports >>>>> >>>>>> radiosity, which is a more realistic method of lighting a room >>>>>> >>>>> statically), >>>>> >>>>>> a whole slew of other graphical effects, and a in house scripting >>>>>> >>>>> language >>>>> >>>>>> it has an abundance of other features. >>>>>> >>>>>> the Unreal Engine is superior to source in every way possible. It's >>>>>> >>>>> easier >>>>> >>>>>> to develop for, very pretty, and has many more features than source. >>>>>> >>>>>> whoever said documentation isn't need must be completely crazy! >>>>>> Documentation for an engine should never be left on the back burner, >>>>>> >>>> it's >>>> >>>>>> an >>>>>> absolute must! In the software development world it's much easier to >>>>>> >>>> sit >>>> >>>>>> someone down and make them read documentation AND THEN fiddle with >>>>>> >>> the >>> >>>>>> source code with a better understanding of how it works V.S making >>>>>> >>> them >>> >>>>>> fiddle around with the engine till they understand exactly what the >>>>>> >>>> hell >>>> >>>>> is >>>>> >>>>>> going on. >>>>>> >>>>>> however, Source has much more potential for the future. Each year >>>>>> >>> Valve >>> >>>>>> increases its feature set and makes it more easier to develop for. I >>>>>> >>>> just >>>> >>>>>> hope their tools catch up as well. >>>>>> >>>>>> Hammer should become Open source, or at least gain the ability to >>>>>> >>> have >>> >>>>>> plugins. A very large number of people in the Torque community use >>>>>> >>> 3.4 >>> >>>>> for >>>>> >>>>>> mapping and I can imagine they would like to extend what they can do >>>>>> >>> in >>> >>>>>> it/get 4.0. >>>>>> >>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> From: "Olly" <[email protected]> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 8:32 AM >>>>>> To: "Discussion of Half-Life Programming" < >>>>>> >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Technical Design Document or Quick Reference >>>>>> >>>>> Guide? >>>>> >>>>>>> Microsoft already tried to compete with STEAM, it was called Games >>>>>>> >>>> for >>>> >>>>>>> windows - Live... and it sucked. Again they tried to charge a >>>>>>> >>>>>> subscription >>>>>> >>>>>>> which failed epicly. >>>>>>> I much prefer engines that are written in C++, they are much MUCH >>>>>>> >>>> more >>>> >>>>>>> powerful than having to 1) Learn the syntax/structure of the >>>>>>> >>> in-house >>> >>>>>>> language 2) Hack your way round doing the simplest of things that >>>>>>> >>> you >>> >>>>>>> could >>>>>>> do with open source C libraries. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2009/1/11 Nick <[email protected]> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am not Valve, I do not work for Valve, but I like Valve, and >>>>>>>> >>> like >>> >>>> a >>>> >>>>>>>> good friend I like to point out where I think they go wrong. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There is no such technical design document for source, available >>>>>>>> >>> to >>> >>>>>>>> the modders, but I suspect there is such a design document if you >>>>>>>> >>>> pay >>>> >>>>>>>> for a license. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Valve is a good company, and has excellent people. But the top >>>>>>>> >>> games >>> >>>>>>>> released for source have been made exclusively by and for Valve. >>>>>>>> >>> The >>> >>>>>>>> source engine is powerful and highly adaptable, if you work for >>>>>>>> >>>> Valve. >>>> >>>>>>>> I think other engines are designed to be easier to understand >>>>>>>> >>>> because >>>> >>>>>>>> the other major game engines are being used by people outside the >>>>>>>> original company. Quake/id and Bioshock/ut3 and america's army/ut3 >>>>>>>> >>>> are >>>> >>>>>>>> some examples I can think of here. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Source engine is powerful if you know how to use it, Valve people >>>>>>>> >>>> are >>>> >>>>>>>> the only ones who know how to use it properly. That isn't going to >>>>>>>> change unless Valve invests heavily in making it more open or >>>>>>>> documenting it more. ( not anytime within the next 3 years). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> UT3 engine is equally powerful, but epic games has gone to great >>>>>>>> lengths to make it easier to use, and highly documented. Also >>>>>>>> >>>> actively >>>> >>>>>>>> encourages scripting instead of forcing everyone to use c++ like >>>>>>>> >>>> valve >>>> >>>>>>>> does. Bioshock/Americas Army/Gears of War 2. Look at the material >>>>>>>> editor that comes with ue3 >>>>>>>> http://hourences.com/book/tutorialsue3mated.htm includes shaders >>>>>>>> >>>> also >>>> >>>>>>>> from almost one and half years ago! >>>>>>>> http://www.unrealtechnology.com/features.php?ref=editor >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I hope valve seriously thinks about open sourcing the tools, >>>>>>>> >>>> formats, >>>> >>>>>>>> and making the engine available on linux. Unless valve thinks it >>>>>>>> >>> can >>> >>>>>>>> exist only by relying on steam sales/distribution. Eventually >>>>>>>> microsoft will make steam obsolete(by creating a steamlike >>>>>>>> >>>> replacement >>>> >>>>>>>> for windows7) or buy valve out entirely, which is probably bad for >>>>>>>> most people working for valve, but good for the owners :P >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 10:29 PM, Walter Gray < >>>>>>>> >>> [email protected] >>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I want to preface this by saying I know it's probably a kind of >>>>>>>>> >>>>> silly >>>>> >>>>>>>>> thing to be asking for, but on the other hand I feel it would >>>>>>>>> >>>> would >>>> >>>>> be >>>>> >>>>>>>>> stupendously useful. >>>>>>>>> I'm looking for something akin to a Technical Design >>>>>>>>> >>> Document >>> >>>>> for >>>>> >>>>>>>>> the source engine, or at least the parts of it which are >>>>>>>>> >>>> distributed >>>> >>>>>>>>> with the Source SDK. Really, any single document that lays out, >>>>>>>>> >>>> in >>>> >>>>> a >>>>> >>>>>>>>> concise fashion, the general structure of the most commonly used >>>>>>>>> systems, what base classes they use, and enough about how they >>>>>>>>> >>> are >>> >>>>>>>>> supposed to work for someone to start messing with them. It >>>>>>>>> >>> seems >>> >>>>> to >>>>> >>>>>>>>> me >>>>>>>>> that the general approach for mod developers has been to use the >>>>>>>>> >>>>> code >>>>> >>>>>>>>> itself as the documentation and ask the community or check the >>>>>>>>> >>>> wiki >>>> >>>>> if >>>>> >>>>>>>>> they find something they don't understand. This, unfortunately, >>>>>>>>> >>>>> means >>>>> >>>>>>>>> that there's no easy way to get new developers on a team >>>>>>>>> >>> familiar >>> >>>>> with >>>>> >>>>>>>>> the engine, which is what I'm aiming to do. I've looked around, >>>>>>>>> >>>> and >>>> >>>>>>>>> there doesn't seem to be anything like this. Am I missing >>>>>>>>> >>>>> something, >>>>> >>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>> does it not exist, and if it doesn't, why not? It seems like >>>>>>>>> >>> it's >>> >>>>> the >>>>> >>>>>>>>> kind of thing that would cut down on a lot of confusion for new >>>>>>>>> >>>> mod >>>> >>>>>>>>> programmers and encourage 3rd party Source development in >>>>>>>>> >>> general. >>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>>>>>>>> >>>>> archives, >>>>> >>>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>>>>>>> >>>> archives, >>>> >>>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>>>>>> >>>> archives, >>>> >>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>>>>> >>> archives, >>> >>>>>> please visit: >>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>>>> please visit: >>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> http://www.pixelfaction.com >>>> AIM:ApeWithABrain >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>>> please visit: >>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>> please visit: >>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > >
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