Aditya: By documentation i mean documentation over architecture and per function/class, that would make the whole thing far more understandable, not just a generic overview of the engine.
On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 1:54 AM, Aditya Gaddam <[email protected]>wrote: > I actually don't see how a general overview could really help other than > maybe the first few steps. And with the source engine, those first few > steps > are usually fairly easy to figure out anyway. But when you do figure those > steps out yourself, you find little trinkets of code and patterns that you > keep seeing and you remember them. Trudging through the code is not fun. I > have been doing it for the last 2 weeks for my mod. But you learn a lot > more > by just going to a class and going willy nilly with the "Go to Definition" > and "Go to Declaration" features in visual studio (right click on a class > or > variable name) than by looking at some overarching structure document > (which > would eventually need its own documentation). > > One thing I would love to see improvements to, is Hammer. Mostly stability > wise. I am not a big fan of the program just quietly shutting down without > warning with changes unsaved. Sometimes hitting save crashes hammer - > umm... > yes. > > But other than that - I like source. It is very hacky. But it is also very > very malleable. They have given us a giant chunk of code to mash around and > I thank them for it. > > Cheers, > Aditya > > On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 2:27 PM, Nuno Silva <[email protected] > >wrote: > > > To me, the Source engine is a great engine, that's pretty obvious since > it > > can produce great performance while keeping geometry and graphics > detailed > > enough. > > > > However, the "public" access to the engine, Source SDK, could be much > > better > > if only there was documentation, as said previously. > > > > Documentation may seem like it's not worth it to some of you, but it can > > *really* make a difference. There's a reason i never make Mods. Not that > > it's "too hard", it's just that i dont have the time to spend weeks > > figuring > > out how stuff works. > > > > On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 6:16 PM, Acolyte Of the Milkman < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > from what I've seen, each year the source engine becomes more easily > > usable > > > and feature rich. Valve takes the iterative process of asking "what do > we > > > need for this game? is it going to benefit the game? and can the users > on > > > lower end machines handle it?" when they're creating new features. > > whereas > > > in the UT engine they have (literally) everything and the kitchen sink! > > it > > > supports 3 different types of shadowing, dynamic shadow volumes, > dynamic > > > shadow mapping (which source supports now), and light maps (source > > supports > > > radiosity, which is a more realistic method of lighting a room > > statically), > > > a whole slew of other graphical effects, and a in house scripting > > language > > > it has an abundance of other features. > > > > > > the Unreal Engine is superior to source in every way possible. It's > > easier > > > to develop for, very pretty, and has many more features than source. > > > > > > whoever said documentation isn't need must be completely crazy! > > > Documentation for an engine should never be left on the back burner, > it's > > > an > > > absolute must! In the software development world it's much easier to > sit > > > someone down and make them read documentation AND THEN fiddle with the > > > source code with a better understanding of how it works V.S making them > > > fiddle around with the engine till they understand exactly what the > hell > > is > > > going on. > > > > > > however, Source has much more potential for the future. Each year Valve > > > increases its feature set and makes it more easier to develop for. I > just > > > hope their tools catch up as well. > > > > > > Hammer should become Open source, or at least gain the ability to have > > > plugins. A very large number of people in the Torque community use 3.4 > > for > > > mapping and I can imagine they would like to extend what they can do in > > > it/get 4.0. > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > From: "Olly" <[email protected]> > > > Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 8:32 AM > > > To: "Discussion of Half-Life Programming" < > > [email protected] > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Technical Design Document or Quick Reference > > Guide? > > > > > > > Microsoft already tried to compete with STEAM, it was called Games > for > > > > windows - Live... and it sucked. Again they tried to charge a > > > subscription > > > > which failed epicly. > > > > I much prefer engines that are written in C++, they are much MUCH > more > > > > powerful than having to 1) Learn the syntax/structure of the in-house > > > > language 2) Hack your way round doing the simplest of things that you > > > > could > > > > do with open source C libraries. > > > > > > > > 2009/1/11 Nick <[email protected]> > > > > > > > >> I am not Valve, I do not work for Valve, but I like Valve, and like > a > > > >> good friend I like to point out where I think they go wrong. > > > >> > > > >> There is no such technical design document for source, available to > > > >> the modders, but I suspect there is such a design document if you > pay > > > >> for a license. > > > >> > > > >> Valve is a good company, and has excellent people. But the top games > > > >> released for source have been made exclusively by and for Valve. The > > > >> source engine is powerful and highly adaptable, if you work for > Valve. > > > >> I think other engines are designed to be easier to understand > because > > > >> the other major game engines are being used by people outside the > > > >> original company. Quake/id and Bioshock/ut3 and america's army/ut3 > are > > > >> some examples I can think of here. > > > >> > > > >> Source engine is powerful if you know how to use it, Valve people > are > > > >> the only ones who know how to use it properly. That isn't going to > > > >> change unless Valve invests heavily in making it more open or > > > >> documenting it more. ( not anytime within the next 3 years). > > > >> > > > >> UT3 engine is equally powerful, but epic games has gone to great > > > >> lengths to make it easier to use, and highly documented. Also > actively > > > >> encourages scripting instead of forcing everyone to use c++ like > valve > > > >> does. Bioshock/Americas Army/Gears of War 2. Look at the material > > > >> editor that comes with ue3 > > > >> http://hourences.com/book/tutorialsue3mated.htm includes shaders > also > > > >> from almost one and half years ago! > > > >> http://www.unrealtechnology.com/features.php?ref=editor > > > >> > > > >> I hope valve seriously thinks about open sourcing the tools, > formats, > > > >> and making the engine available on linux. Unless valve thinks it can > > > >> exist only by relying on steam sales/distribution. Eventually > > > >> microsoft will make steam obsolete(by creating a steamlike > replacement > > > >> for windows7) or buy valve out entirely, which is probably bad for > > > >> most people working for valve, but good for the owners :P > > > >> > > > >> On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 10:29 PM, Walter Gray <[email protected] > > > > > >> wrote: > > > >> > I want to preface this by saying I know it's probably a kind of > > silly > > > >> > thing to be asking for, but on the other hand I feel it would > would > > be > > > >> > stupendously useful. > > > >> > I'm looking for something akin to a Technical Design Document > > for > > > >> > the source engine, or at least the parts of it which are > distributed > > > >> > with the Source SDK. Really, any single document that lays out, > in > > a > > > >> > concise fashion, the general structure of the most commonly used > > > >> > systems, what base classes they use, and enough about how they are > > > >> > supposed to work for someone to start messing with them. It seems > > to > > > >> > me > > > >> > that the general approach for mod developers has been to use the > > code > > > >> > itself as the documentation and ask the community or check the > wiki > > if > > > >> > they find something they don't understand. This, unfortunately, > > means > > > >> > that there's no easy way to get new developers on a team familiar > > with > > > >> > the engine, which is what I'm aiming to do. I've looked around, > and > > > >> > there doesn't seem to be anything like this. Am I missing > > something, > > > >> > or > > > >> > does it not exist, and if it doesn't, why not? It seems like it's > > the > > > >> > kind of thing that would cut down on a lot of confusion for new > mod > > > >> > programmers and encourage 3rd party Source development in general. > > > >> > > > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > > >> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > > archives, > > > >> please visit: > > > >> > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > archives, > > > >> please visit: > > > >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > > >> > > > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > archives, > > > > please visit: > > > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > > please visit: > > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > > > > > > -- > http://www.pixelfaction.com > AIM:ApeWithABrain > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
