I agree. Even and overview of the architecture of the engine would make it more easily understandable. If they just released a UML Diagram of the classes, indicating where they are used, from where they inherent and etc... would really help, and it should not be dificult to make, just run a program to do it.
2009/1/13 Nuno Silva <[email protected]> > Aditya: By documentation i mean documentation over architecture and per > function/class, that would make the whole thing far more understandable, > not > just a generic overview of the engine. > > On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 1:54 AM, Aditya Gaddam <[email protected] > >wrote: > > > I actually don't see how a general overview could really help other than > > maybe the first few steps. And with the source engine, those first few > > steps > > are usually fairly easy to figure out anyway. But when you do figure > those > > steps out yourself, you find little trinkets of code and patterns that > you > > keep seeing and you remember them. Trudging through the code is not fun. > I > > have been doing it for the last 2 weeks for my mod. But you learn a lot > > more > > by just going to a class and going willy nilly with the "Go to > Definition" > > and "Go to Declaration" features in visual studio (right click on a class > > or > > variable name) than by looking at some overarching structure document > > (which > > would eventually need its own documentation). > > > > One thing I would love to see improvements to, is Hammer. Mostly > stability > > wise. I am not a big fan of the program just quietly shutting down > without > > warning with changes unsaved. Sometimes hitting save crashes hammer - > > umm... > > yes. > > > > But other than that - I like source. It is very hacky. But it is also > very > > very malleable. They have given us a giant chunk of code to mash around > and > > I thank them for it. > > > > Cheers, > > Aditya > > > > On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 2:27 PM, Nuno Silva <[email protected] > > >wrote: > > > > > To me, the Source engine is a great engine, that's pretty obvious since > > it > > > can produce great performance while keeping geometry and graphics > > detailed > > > enough. > > > > > > However, the "public" access to the engine, Source SDK, could be much > > > better > > > if only there was documentation, as said previously. > > > > > > Documentation may seem like it's not worth it to some of you, but it > can > > > *really* make a difference. There's a reason i never make Mods. Not > that > > > it's "too hard", it's just that i dont have the time to spend weeks > > > figuring > > > out how stuff works. > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 6:16 PM, Acolyte Of the Milkman < > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > from what I've seen, each year the source engine becomes more easily > > > usable > > > > and feature rich. Valve takes the iterative process of asking "what > do > > we > > > > need for this game? is it going to benefit the game? and can the > users > > on > > > > lower end machines handle it?" when they're creating new features. > > > whereas > > > > in the UT engine they have (literally) everything and the kitchen > sink! > > > it > > > > supports 3 different types of shadowing, dynamic shadow volumes, > > dynamic > > > > shadow mapping (which source supports now), and light maps (source > > > supports > > > > radiosity, which is a more realistic method of lighting a room > > > statically), > > > > a whole slew of other graphical effects, and a in house scripting > > > language > > > > it has an abundance of other features. > > > > > > > > the Unreal Engine is superior to source in every way possible. It's > > > easier > > > > to develop for, very pretty, and has many more features than source. > > > > > > > > whoever said documentation isn't need must be completely crazy! > > > > Documentation for an engine should never be left on the back burner, > > it's > > > > an > > > > absolute must! In the software development world it's much easier to > > sit > > > > someone down and make them read documentation AND THEN fiddle with > the > > > > source code with a better understanding of how it works V.S making > them > > > > fiddle around with the engine till they understand exactly what the > > hell > > > is > > > > going on. > > > > > > > > however, Source has much more potential for the future. Each year > Valve > > > > increases its feature set and makes it more easier to develop for. I > > just > > > > hope their tools catch up as well. > > > > > > > > Hammer should become Open source, or at least gain the ability to > have > > > > plugins. A very large number of people in the Torque community use > 3.4 > > > for > > > > mapping and I can imagine they would like to extend what they can do > in > > > > it/get 4.0. > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > From: "Olly" <[email protected]> > > > > Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 8:32 AM > > > > To: "Discussion of Half-Life Programming" < > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Technical Design Document or Quick Reference > > > Guide? > > > > > > > > > Microsoft already tried to compete with STEAM, it was called Games > > for > > > > > windows - Live... and it sucked. Again they tried to charge a > > > > subscription > > > > > which failed epicly. > > > > > I much prefer engines that are written in C++, they are much MUCH > > more > > > > > powerful than having to 1) Learn the syntax/structure of the > in-house > > > > > language 2) Hack your way round doing the simplest of things that > you > > > > > could > > > > > do with open source C libraries. > > > > > > > > > > 2009/1/11 Nick <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > > >> I am not Valve, I do not work for Valve, but I like Valve, and > like > > a > > > > >> good friend I like to point out where I think they go wrong. > > > > >> > > > > >> There is no such technical design document for source, available > to > > > > >> the modders, but I suspect there is such a design document if you > > pay > > > > >> for a license. > > > > >> > > > > >> Valve is a good company, and has excellent people. But the top > games > > > > >> released for source have been made exclusively by and for Valve. > The > > > > >> source engine is powerful and highly adaptable, if you work for > > Valve. > > > > >> I think other engines are designed to be easier to understand > > because > > > > >> the other major game engines are being used by people outside the > > > > >> original company. Quake/id and Bioshock/ut3 and america's army/ut3 > > are > > > > >> some examples I can think of here. > > > > >> > > > > >> Source engine is powerful if you know how to use it, Valve people > > are > > > > >> the only ones who know how to use it properly. That isn't going to > > > > >> change unless Valve invests heavily in making it more open or > > > > >> documenting it more. ( not anytime within the next 3 years). > > > > >> > > > > >> UT3 engine is equally powerful, but epic games has gone to great > > > > >> lengths to make it easier to use, and highly documented. Also > > actively > > > > >> encourages scripting instead of forcing everyone to use c++ like > > valve > > > > >> does. Bioshock/Americas Army/Gears of War 2. Look at the material > > > > >> editor that comes with ue3 > > > > >> http://hourences.com/book/tutorialsue3mated.htm includes shaders > > also > > > > >> from almost one and half years ago! > > > > >> http://www.unrealtechnology.com/features.php?ref=editor > > > > >> > > > > >> I hope valve seriously thinks about open sourcing the tools, > > formats, > > > > >> and making the engine available on linux. Unless valve thinks it > can > > > > >> exist only by relying on steam sales/distribution. Eventually > > > > >> microsoft will make steam obsolete(by creating a steamlike > > replacement > > > > >> for windows7) or buy valve out entirely, which is probably bad for > > > > >> most people working for valve, but good for the owners :P > > > > >> > > > > >> On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 10:29 PM, Walter Gray < > [email protected] > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > >> > I want to preface this by saying I know it's probably a kind of > > > silly > > > > >> > thing to be asking for, but on the other hand I feel it would > > would > > > be > > > > >> > stupendously useful. > > > > >> > I'm looking for something akin to a Technical Design > Document > > > for > > > > >> > the source engine, or at least the parts of it which are > > distributed > > > > >> > with the Source SDK. Really, any single document that lays out, > > in > > > a > > > > >> > concise fashion, the general structure of the most commonly used > > > > >> > systems, what base classes they use, and enough about how they > are > > > > >> > supposed to work for someone to start messing with them. It > seems > > > to > > > > >> > me > > > > >> > that the general approach for mod developers has been to use the > > > code > > > > >> > itself as the documentation and ask the community or check the > > wiki > > > if > > > > >> > they find something they don't understand. This, unfortunately, > > > means > > > > >> > that there's no easy way to get new developers on a team > familiar > > > with > > > > >> > the engine, which is what I'm aiming to do. I've looked around, > > and > > > > >> > there doesn't seem to be anything like this. Am I missing > > > something, > > > > >> > or > > > > >> > does it not exist, and if it doesn't, why not? It seems like > it's > > > the > > > > >> > kind of thing that would cut down on a lot of confusion for new > > mod > > > > >> > programmers and encourage 3rd party Source development in > general. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > > > >> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > > > archives, > > > > >> please visit: > > > > >> > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > > >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > > archives, > > > > >> please visit: > > > > >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > > archives, > > > > > please visit: > > > > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > archives, > > > > please visit: > > > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > > please visit: > > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > http://www.pixelfaction.com > > AIM:ApeWithABrain > > _______________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
