If you want an UML diagram...why dont you just create one with VS? ZuM schrieb: > I agree. Even and overview of the architecture of the engine would make it > more easily understandable. > If they just released a UML Diagram of the classes, indicating where they > are used, from where they inherent and etc... would really help, and it > should not be dificult to make, just run a program to do it. > > 2009/1/13 Nuno Silva <[email protected]> > > >> Aditya: By documentation i mean documentation over architecture and per >> function/class, that would make the whole thing far more understandable, >> not >> just a generic overview of the engine. >> >> On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 1:54 AM, Aditya Gaddam <[email protected] >> >>> wrote: >>> >>> I actually don't see how a general overview could really help other than >>> maybe the first few steps. And with the source engine, those first few >>> steps >>> are usually fairly easy to figure out anyway. But when you do figure >>> >> those >> >>> steps out yourself, you find little trinkets of code and patterns that >>> >> you >> >>> keep seeing and you remember them. Trudging through the code is not fun. >>> >> I >> >>> have been doing it for the last 2 weeks for my mod. But you learn a lot >>> more >>> by just going to a class and going willy nilly with the "Go to >>> >> Definition" >> >>> and "Go to Declaration" features in visual studio (right click on a class >>> or >>> variable name) than by looking at some overarching structure document >>> (which >>> would eventually need its own documentation). >>> >>> One thing I would love to see improvements to, is Hammer. Mostly >>> >> stability >> >>> wise. I am not a big fan of the program just quietly shutting down >>> >> without >> >>> warning with changes unsaved. Sometimes hitting save crashes hammer - >>> umm... >>> yes. >>> >>> But other than that - I like source. It is very hacky. But it is also >>> >> very >> >>> very malleable. They have given us a giant chunk of code to mash around >>> >> and >> >>> I thank them for it. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Aditya >>> >>> On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 2:27 PM, Nuno Silva <[email protected] >>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> To me, the Source engine is a great engine, that's pretty obvious since >>>> >>> it >>> >>>> can produce great performance while keeping geometry and graphics >>>> >>> detailed >>> >>>> enough. >>>> >>>> However, the "public" access to the engine, Source SDK, could be much >>>> better >>>> if only there was documentation, as said previously. >>>> >>>> Documentation may seem like it's not worth it to some of you, but it >>>> >> can >> >>>> *really* make a difference. There's a reason i never make Mods. Not >>>> >> that >> >>>> it's "too hard", it's just that i dont have the time to spend weeks >>>> figuring >>>> out how stuff works. >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 6:16 PM, Acolyte Of the Milkman < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> from what I've seen, each year the source engine becomes more easily >>>>> >>>> usable >>>> >>>>> and feature rich. Valve takes the iterative process of asking "what >>>>> >> do >> >>> we >>> >>>>> need for this game? is it going to benefit the game? and can the >>>>> >> users >> >>> on >>> >>>>> lower end machines handle it?" when they're creating new features. >>>>> >>>> whereas >>>> >>>>> in the UT engine they have (literally) everything and the kitchen >>>>> >> sink! >> >>>> it >>>> >>>>> supports 3 different types of shadowing, dynamic shadow volumes, >>>>> >>> dynamic >>> >>>>> shadow mapping (which source supports now), and light maps (source >>>>> >>>> supports >>>> >>>>> radiosity, which is a more realistic method of lighting a room >>>>> >>>> statically), >>>> >>>>> a whole slew of other graphical effects, and a in house scripting >>>>> >>>> language >>>> >>>>> it has an abundance of other features. >>>>> >>>>> the Unreal Engine is superior to source in every way possible. It's >>>>> >>>> easier >>>> >>>>> to develop for, very pretty, and has many more features than source. >>>>> >>>>> whoever said documentation isn't need must be completely crazy! >>>>> Documentation for an engine should never be left on the back burner, >>>>> >>> it's >>> >>>>> an >>>>> absolute must! In the software development world it's much easier to >>>>> >>> sit >>> >>>>> someone down and make them read documentation AND THEN fiddle with >>>>> >> the >> >>>>> source code with a better understanding of how it works V.S making >>>>> >> them >> >>>>> fiddle around with the engine till they understand exactly what the >>>>> >>> hell >>> >>>> is >>>> >>>>> going on. >>>>> >>>>> however, Source has much more potential for the future. Each year >>>>> >> Valve >> >>>>> increases its feature set and makes it more easier to develop for. I >>>>> >>> just >>> >>>>> hope their tools catch up as well. >>>>> >>>>> Hammer should become Open source, or at least gain the ability to >>>>> >> have >> >>>>> plugins. A very large number of people in the Torque community use >>>>> >> 3.4 >> >>>> for >>>> >>>>> mapping and I can imagine they would like to extend what they can do >>>>> >> in >> >>>>> it/get 4.0. >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>> From: "Olly" <[email protected]> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 8:32 AM >>>>> To: "Discussion of Half-Life Programming" < >>>>> >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Technical Design Document or Quick Reference >>>>> >>>> Guide? >>>> >>>>>> Microsoft already tried to compete with STEAM, it was called Games >>>>>> >>> for >>> >>>>>> windows - Live... and it sucked. Again they tried to charge a >>>>>> >>>>> subscription >>>>> >>>>>> which failed epicly. >>>>>> I much prefer engines that are written in C++, they are much MUCH >>>>>> >>> more >>> >>>>>> powerful than having to 1) Learn the syntax/structure of the >>>>>> >> in-house >> >>>>>> language 2) Hack your way round doing the simplest of things that >>>>>> >> you >> >>>>>> could >>>>>> do with open source C libraries. >>>>>> >>>>>> 2009/1/11 Nick <[email protected]> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> I am not Valve, I do not work for Valve, but I like Valve, and >>>>>>> >> like >> >>> a >>> >>>>>>> good friend I like to point out where I think they go wrong. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There is no such technical design document for source, available >>>>>>> >> to >> >>>>>>> the modders, but I suspect there is such a design document if you >>>>>>> >>> pay >>> >>>>>>> for a license. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Valve is a good company, and has excellent people. But the top >>>>>>> >> games >> >>>>>>> released for source have been made exclusively by and for Valve. >>>>>>> >> The >> >>>>>>> source engine is powerful and highly adaptable, if you work for >>>>>>> >>> Valve. >>> >>>>>>> I think other engines are designed to be easier to understand >>>>>>> >>> because >>> >>>>>>> the other major game engines are being used by people outside the >>>>>>> original company. Quake/id and Bioshock/ut3 and america's army/ut3 >>>>>>> >>> are >>> >>>>>>> some examples I can think of here. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Source engine is powerful if you know how to use it, Valve people >>>>>>> >>> are >>> >>>>>>> the only ones who know how to use it properly. That isn't going to >>>>>>> change unless Valve invests heavily in making it more open or >>>>>>> documenting it more. ( not anytime within the next 3 years). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> UT3 engine is equally powerful, but epic games has gone to great >>>>>>> lengths to make it easier to use, and highly documented. Also >>>>>>> >>> actively >>> >>>>>>> encourages scripting instead of forcing everyone to use c++ like >>>>>>> >>> valve >>> >>>>>>> does. Bioshock/Americas Army/Gears of War 2. Look at the material >>>>>>> editor that comes with ue3 >>>>>>> http://hourences.com/book/tutorialsue3mated.htm includes shaders >>>>>>> >>> also >>> >>>>>>> from almost one and half years ago! >>>>>>> http://www.unrealtechnology.com/features.php?ref=editor >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I hope valve seriously thinks about open sourcing the tools, >>>>>>> >>> formats, >>> >>>>>>> and making the engine available on linux. Unless valve thinks it >>>>>>> >> can >> >>>>>>> exist only by relying on steam sales/distribution. Eventually >>>>>>> microsoft will make steam obsolete(by creating a steamlike >>>>>>> >>> replacement >>> >>>>>>> for windows7) or buy valve out entirely, which is probably bad for >>>>>>> most people working for valve, but good for the owners :P >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 10:29 PM, Walter Gray < >>>>>>> >> [email protected] >> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I want to preface this by saying I know it's probably a kind of >>>>>>>> >>>> silly >>>> >>>>>>>> thing to be asking for, but on the other hand I feel it would >>>>>>>> >>> would >>> >>>> be >>>> >>>>>>>> stupendously useful. >>>>>>>> I'm looking for something akin to a Technical Design >>>>>>>> >> Document >> >>>> for >>>> >>>>>>>> the source engine, or at least the parts of it which are >>>>>>>> >>> distributed >>> >>>>>>>> with the Source SDK. Really, any single document that lays out, >>>>>>>> >>> in >>> >>>> a >>>> >>>>>>>> concise fashion, the general structure of the most commonly used >>>>>>>> systems, what base classes they use, and enough about how they >>>>>>>> >> are >> >>>>>>>> supposed to work for someone to start messing with them. It >>>>>>>> >> seems >> >>>> to >>>> >>>>>>>> me >>>>>>>> that the general approach for mod developers has been to use the >>>>>>>> >>>> code >>>> >>>>>>>> itself as the documentation and ask the community or check the >>>>>>>> >>> wiki >>> >>>> if >>>> >>>>>>>> they find something they don't understand. This, unfortunately, >>>>>>>> >>>> means >>>> >>>>>>>> that there's no easy way to get new developers on a team >>>>>>>> >> familiar >> >>>> with >>>> >>>>>>>> the engine, which is what I'm aiming to do. I've looked around, >>>>>>>> >>> and >>> >>>>>>>> there doesn't seem to be anything like this. Am I missing >>>>>>>> >>>> something, >>>> >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> does it not exist, and if it doesn't, why not? It seems like >>>>>>>> >> it's >> >>>> the >>>> >>>>>>>> kind of thing that would cut down on a lot of confusion for new >>>>>>>> >>> mod >>> >>>>>>>> programmers and encourage 3rd party Source development in >>>>>>>> >> general. >> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>>>>>>> >>>> archives, >>>> >>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>>>>>> >>> archives, >>> >>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>>>>> >>> archives, >>> >>>>>> please visit: >>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>>>> >> archives, >> >>>>> please visit: >>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>>> please visit: >>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> http://www.pixelfaction.com >>> AIM:ApeWithABrain >>> _______________________________________________ >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>> please visit: >>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > >
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