William, the concert "A" is the basic of all tuning - and I have an acquired absolute pitch. The mentioned 8th partial of the Bb-horn is flat on most horns I have tried, if played as an open note, but can be adjusted playing it as the ninth partial of the Ab-horn using valve 1.
The 8th partial on the F-side is in tune mostly as is the 6th on the Bb-horn. This is a reality, no matter what the maths say. All requires that the hand position inside the bell be neutral (standard). The ear training is missing with more & more players. Proper work with Josef Schantls Great Method is missing, as this is the best method to develop playing & hearing: intervals, chords, articulation, understanding the patterns. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Am 18.11.2009 um 22:26 schrieb [email protected]: > I am going to have to respectfully agree to one of these points and > disagree with others: > > Agreements: > > Tuning a horn is a very simple procedure and a manual isn't required. All > that is required is a little bit of curiosity, your ears, and knowledge of > the harmonic series of the horn. > > Disagreements: > > The 'best notes' is a very bad description in my opinion. What I originally > said was to use the 8th partial on either side of the horn to tune it. > Your case, an F on the Bb side is going to be 6th partial, will be sharp, > and > is never a good note to tune. What defines a best note? The horn? The > partial? If so, what partial? > > On the Bb side, 8th partial is the top line F (treble clef), on the F side > this is the 3rd space C (treble clef). Always for standard > double/triple/single horns. If you have something non standard, you can > figure out what the > 8th partial is very quickly (it's the key of your horn). > > I always tune my F first then my C (concert Bb then concert F) on the main > tuning slide then the F slide - as I do not play on any horn that has a Bb > tuning slide - and if I did I probably wouldn't use it. > > I play the note first, let the piano play, then adjust. > > Why ask the piano to play a concert A? What if that particular piano has > one bad note and it's the concert A? Why not tune to two notes to eliminate > difference tones rather than try to tune an interval? > > As for orchestra tuning which is always a concert A, since most of the > valve slide tuning should be done before you get out on stage what is so > wrong > about playing an E on the Bb horn? This uses only one valve (which should > be very close already if you tune regularly) and is on the 8th partial. > Eighth partial = good. > > You wouldn't dare tune an octave lower on the F side because that is a 5th > partial (FLAT and a huge pet peeve of mine). You could try an octave lower > on the Bb horn, but it is 4th partial and even though its tune it's easy to > wander about on the lips on that partial. > > If you're soloing with a piano, you can darned well tell the piano what > notes you want to tune to. I normally choose a concert Bb then concert F, > unless I'm playing on a modified horn. In the case of my playing the Weber > Concertino (on a B/F# horn reading in Eb) I asked for a B and F#. > > Of course I'm not a professional player, but I have a very strong math > background and work as a successful software developer for a living. I have > very good mathematical/quantifiable reasons to tune the way I tune. > > So take it with a grain of salt if you want - but I can back it up with > numbers. > > I always think of the horn as a single pipe with a couple of extra > branches. The main tuning slide is no branches - tune that to an 8th partial > concert Bb. The first branch is typically the F side, tune that next. Then > get > to the valve slides. All you're doing is adjusting the length of a pipe to > create a certain frequency with a number of standing waves. It's very simple. > > I don't know how you can go wrong sticking to 8th partials - since those > are the ones that initially need to be in tune. If you know your harmonics > and know that 5ths are flat, 6ths are sharp, etc. - then you can always tune > > accordingly. > > And who says you have to tune to an E outside of orchestra? > > -William > > > In a message dated 11/18/2009 3:58:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > Question: is it really necessary to read an article about how to tune a > horn, single or double, Bb or F - all follows the same principle. Oops, > another question: does anyone know any valve on any horn, which is NOT > operated > by amy finger - thumb be also a finger, or not ? > > Theory: > first find out, what is the main tuning slide, situated between mouthpiece > & entrance to the valve section (except with the Viennese horns). This is > also with double horns or compensating horns, which are nothing else (in > principle) than Bb-horns with an F-extension. So tuning the Bb-side first is > wise. > > Basic tuning must use the best notes on any horn, which is the concert > "f1" on the Bb-side (our written c2, second space from top), but not > together > with the same note from the tuner or the piano, no-no, but with the concert > "a" from tuner or piano, and tune the horn with a third interval between f > & a. > Next comes the F-side using the same concert "f" (our 2nd space c2 on the > F-horn), tuning it also in relation with concert "a" from piano or tuner. > > This has the double effect, that a player without proper ear-training is > lost completely. He must fall in complete desperation then. In reality, such > a person has zero chances to play in tune ever. > > The valve slides must be adjusted accordingly: Thumb rule: F-slides: 1st > valve out for 0,4", 2nd valve 0,3", 3rd valve 0,5-0,6", the slides for the > Bb-side all a bit less. > > If the main tuning slide is slided out more than usual, all valve slides > must be out a bit more than usual also. > > It is absolutely insane, to tune the horn with given concert "a" by > playing the same note on the Bb-side with 2nd valve involved. I witnessed > that at > an audition for my orchestra. As concert "a" might be a bit flat on the > F-side also, it is not the right note on the horn to tune the instrument. In > relation to concert "a" = YES, with a played concert "a" = NO. > > I find this discussion somewhat grotesque, as it is the duty of EVERY horn > teacher, to instruct the student ONCE, only ONCE, how to tune the > instrument properly. > > But there are some individual players, who insist that they play in tune > always, because they get their instrument tuned by the repairman during the > summer repair !!!! I thought, this would be only for contrabasses ????? > > **************************************************************************** > *********************************** > > > Am 18.11.2009 um 20:25 schrieb Dan Beeker: > >> Jeremy, >> >> Go to http://educators.conn-selmer.com/brass/ and download the how to >> tune an 8d article. It is in a word document. If you can't open it, send > >> me your e-mail address and I will send you a pdf file. It will give you >> instructions on adjusting the main tuning slides. Unfortunately the >> instructions are useless for understanding how to adjust the slides for >> the finger operated valves. Somewhere I have an old mimeographed copy of >> the "original" instructions for tuning the 8d but I may reach retirement >> before I find it. Perhaps someone alse has a copy of it they could send > you. >> >> If you are taking lessons or live somewhere with a band or symphony I >> bet you could contact them and find a horn player that would be willing >> to show you how it is done. In principal it is easy but in practice, a >> trained ear helps. >> >> Dan Beeker >>> >>>> How do you tune a Conn 8D? I can't figure out what slide does what. > I'm confused! :( >>>> >>>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> post: [email protected] >> unsubscribe or set options at > https://pegasus.memphis.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/options/horn/hpizka%40me.com > > _______________________________________________ > post: [email protected] > unsubscribe or set options at > https://pegasus.memphis.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/options/horn/valkhorn%40aol.com > > > _______________________________________________ > post: [email protected] > unsubscribe or set options at > https://pegasus.memphis.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/options/horn/hpizka%40me.com _______________________________________________ post: [email protected] unsubscribe or set options at https://pegasus.memphis.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
