On 11 Apr 2008 17:49:18 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote: >Farley, Peter x23353 wrote: >> I probably should have added the phrase "available to the application >> programmer". And yes, most of the MVS sites at which I worked used >> ignorance and information hiding to do it. Plus a little attitude -- >> "Real programmers only use SYSUDUMP" kind of attidude. >> > >C'mon, Dude! I came up as an application programmer in a prominent >Southern California bank back in the 1980s. Our sysprogs -- full >disclosure: Skip Robinson from SCE was one of them -- did their jobs; we >did ours. They didn't teach us about how to use TSO/E commands, how to >use ISPF, or how to use/manage any of the other myriad MVS batch and >online programs and facilities that we could run. We simply read the >manuals to learn. > >In those days, we ordered paper manuals. There was only so much space in >your cubicle and the books were not ultra cheap. I suppose, if one >ordered an IPCS manual, it's conceivable your manager *might* ask, "What >do you need that for?" We also had a library with shelves full of >manuals we could all share. > >(FYI: I purchased "G" and "S" manuals directly from IBM for my own >collection at home. It was purely my choice which ones to buy. I spent a >fortune on them! :-$ ) > >I doubt the sysprogs of today are any more interested in teaching >application programmers how to use TSO/E than they were 25 years ago. >Application programmers must still read manuals to learn how to use the >system. And, these days, manuals are available for free, via the >Internet, covering every imaginable aspect of z/OS! > >I'd like to know just how evil, 21st-century, Darth-Vader-like sysprogs >use "ignorance and information hiding" to prevent application >programmers from knowing anything about IPCS. IPCS is just as easy a >command to type as ISPF and the doc is as freely available as it is for >any other built-in command or facility that runs under z/OS! (That is, >unless the sysprogs are censoring the Internet!)
This may depend on how restrictive management is with ISPF. Back in the 1980's and early 1990's my shop restricted the use of TSO commands severely and made ISPF the sole environment except for systems programmers. We finally were allowed to give them PDS. At the time IPCS was such a pain to set up that I found it easier to just read the dumps normally for the few occasions where I needed them. Abendaid was more than adequate for the applications and understood COBOL. The LE dumps of the late 1990's also were good for debugging and for most purposes IPCS would probably have been more trouble than it was worth. Clark Morris > >I suggest a more reasonable explanation is that the application >programmers *themselves* are avoiding IPCS!!!! > >> In any case, I've never been privileged to learn it or use it. >> > >It's never too late! ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
