Dear Surajit ji, Thank you once again for taking the time to explain it patiently. The illustration in the first link is wonderful and shows a plant close to my sample.
I am still confused though. What does A. avensis L. represent–the scarlet variety or the blue one or both? Could we still call it a variation as in A. avensis L. var. caerulea? So far I was only trying to see if it was A. avensis or A. foemina but now realise that it is more complicated than that (if I understand correctly, you are pointing out the possibility that these are the same taxa). What would be the most reliable standard to follow here? This website treats A. arvensis L. and A. foemina Mill. as synonyms. http://keyserver.lucidcentral.org/weeds/data/03030800-0b07-490a-8d04-0605030c0f01/media/Html/Anagallis_arvensis.htm <http://keyserver.lucidcentral.org/weeds/data/03030800-0b07-490a-8d04-0605030c0f01/media/Html/Anagallis_arvensis.htm> I am sorry if I annoy you with my ignorance but I sincerely do not know the answers to these questions. Warm regards, Ashwini > On 01-May-2015, at 4:43 pm, surajit koley <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Dear Ashwini Ji, > > When I write A. arvensis L. I mean Anagalls arvensis Linnaeus. > As for your concern regarding latifolia you may like to see > http://plantillustrations.org/illustration.php?id_illustration=86648 > <http://plantillustrations.org/illustration.php?id_illustration=86648>. > As for your question regarding caerulea please check > http://plants.jstor.org/stable/10.5555/al.ap.flora.floc009063 > <http://plants.jstor.org/stable/10.5555/al.ap.flora.floc009063> > http://plants.jstor.org/stable/10.5555/al.ap.specimen.mpu006275 > <http://plants.jstor.org/stable/10.5555/al.ap.specimen.mpu006275> > Can you please tell me which one do we have Wight's latifolia > <http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl1.1/record/kew-2636074> or Sweet's indica > <http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl1.1/record/kew-2636064> or Linné's caerulea > <http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl1.1/record/kew-2636034>? > > As for your question regarding KEW's label in foemina herb. you need to check > http://plants.jstor.org/stable/10.5555/al.ap.specimen.k000750810 > <http://plants.jstor.org/stable/10.5555/al.ap.specimen.k000750810> > > Does this satisfies you? > > Thank you > Regards > surajit > > > On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 7:54 AM, Ashwini Bhatia <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > Thank you Surajit ji for this detailed search. Indeed, it is difficult to > tell from the pictures. I think we all seem to agree that my sample was > Anagallis arvensis and not A. foemina (which was the major question to begin > with). > > Looking at Dr Gurcharan Singh’s clear keys on efi, I concluded that we had A. > arvensis subsp. caerulea. Are we now seeing that the subsp. part may not be > correct and that it should be Anagallis arvensis L.? I am assuming L stands > for Latifolia here. > > If both A. arvensis subsp. caerulea and A. arvensis L. are identical, isn’t > the question then of a technicality–of whether the same should be called by > either of these two names? > > The note at the bottom of the KEW sample has A. arvensis L. var .… written on > it and not A. foemina as indicated by you. > > <Screen Shot 2015-05-01 at 7.51.37 am.png> > > I may have understood it incorrectly and if I have, please correct me. > > Thanks and regards, > Ashwini > >> On 30-Apr-2015, at 11:48 pm, surajit koley <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> This is a tough question, to differentiate the two taxa (or is it one?), in >> spite of eFI having a clear demarcation. >> >> Flower character, length of pedicels etc are often overlapping. While sites >> like >> http://keyserver.lucidcentral.org/weeds/data/03030800-0b07-490a-8d04-0605030c0f01/media/Html/Anagallis_arvensis.htm >> >> <http://keyserver.lucidcentral.org/weeds/data/03030800-0b07-490a-8d04-0605030c0f01/media/Html/Anagallis_arvensis.htm> >> or http://flowers2.la.coocan.jp/Myrsinaceae/Anagallis%20arvensis.htm >> <http://flowers2.la.coocan.jp/Myrsinaceae/Anagallis%20arvensis.htm> or >> http://hirc.botanic.hr/fcd/DetaljiFrame.aspx?IdVrste=941 >> <http://hirc.botanic.hr/fcd/DetaljiFrame.aspx?IdVrste=941> think all is same >> some other sites like the following links think otherwise - >> http://www.floravascular.com/index.php?spp=Anagallis%20foemina >> <http://www.floravascular.com/index.php?spp=Anagallis%20foemina> >> http://www.floravascular.com/index.php?spp=Anagallis%20arvensis >> <http://www.floravascular.com/index.php?spp=Anagallis%20arvensis> >> I think number of seeds may help - 10 to 23 in foemina and 20 to 35 in >> arvensis (caerulea L.). >> >> Here is KEW herb of foemina - >> http://apps.kew.org/herbcat/getImage.do?imageBarcode=K000750810 >> <http://apps.kew.org/herbcat/getImage.do?imageBarcode=K000750810>. >> >> Since pedicels in the attached pics are longer than the subtending leaves, >> and I prefer to follow FoC it is likely to be A. arvensis L. >> >> Thank you >> Regards >> surajit >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 4:47 PM, J.M. Garg <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> I think you should be right. >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Ashwini Bhatia <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> >> Date: 24 April 2015 at 17:51 >> Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:221413] Re: Blue Pimpernel ABAPR01/17 >> To: "J.M. Garg" <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >> Cc: efloraofindia <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> >> >> >> Thank you very much Dr Garg. I am attaching here more photos to go with the >> key. Please advise if my understanding is correct; >> >> >> The first sample, petals are longer than sepals and petal edges are minutely >> hairy like a torn paper. >> <_MG_0262_13April15.jpg> >> >> The second sample from a different location shows pedicel longer than leaves. >> >> <_MG_0272_18April15.jpg> >> >> Petals are overlapping. >> <_MG_0272c_18April15.jpg> >> >> >> Can we conclude from this that the flower is A. arvensis var. caerulea? >> >> Thanks and regards, >> Ashwini >> >> >>> On 24-Apr-2015, at 5:24 pm, J.M. Garg <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> >>> Keys are available at Anagallis >>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/po/primulaceae/anagallis> >>> >>> On 24 April 2015 at 17:15, Ashwini Bhatia <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> Thank you Dr Garg. I am not sure if it is Anagallis arvensis ssp. foemina >>> or Lysimachia formina. The following is from my original message on this >>> thread; >>> >>> "FOI website lists it (or a similar one) as Anagallis arvensis ssp. >>> foemina. Alok Mahendroo ji's excellent nature blog says Anagallis arvensis >>> var. coerulea. Wikipedia cautions not to confuse the blue variation of A. >>> arvensis with A. foemina (or Lysimachia formina) as they are categorised as >>> different species after DNA studies. >>> >>> I do not have the key to differentiate the two. Please advise.” >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Ashwini >>> >>>> On 24-Apr-2015, at 2:14 pm, J.M. Garg <[email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Pl. see Anagallis >>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/po/primulaceae/anagallis> >>>> >>>> On 18 April 2015 at 21:25, Ashwini Bhatia <[email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> I found a few more plants at Gaggal Airport and am sharing them here to >>>> confirm the ID if possible. >>>> >>>> Gaggal Airport >>>> 1300m approx >>>> 18 April 2015 >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> Ashwini >>>> >>>> <_MG_0265_18April15.jpg><_MG_0269_18April15.jpg> >>>> >>>> On 15-Apr-2015, at 9:05 am, Ashwini Bhatia <[email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I saw these tiny blue flowers in the lower town where I had gone to >>>>> partake in a local feast. I tried to photograph it on my phone but was >>>>> unable to do so properly on account of the flower being too small for a >>>>> clear picture. I collected a sample and hoped that it didn't wilt in the >>>>> time it took me to reach home. It survived the journey and I made some >>>>> photographs propping it up with a discarded cardboard box (hence the >>>>> brown in the pictures). >>>>> >>>>> I was tickled on finding that it was called the Blue Pimpernel and was >>>>> useful as a weather indicator due to its propensity to close before bad >>>>> weather. I have not yet asked the local shepherds if they use this >>>>> 'shepherd's weather-glass', but will do so soon. FOI website lists it (or >>>>> a similar one) as Anagallis arvensis ssp. foemina. Alok Mahendroo ji's >>>>> excellent nature blog says Anagallis arvensis var. coerulea. Wikipedia >>>>> cautions not to confuse the blue variation of A. arvensis with A. foemina >>>>> (or Lysimachia formina) as they are categorised as different species >>>>> after DNA studies. >>>>> >>>>> I do not have the key to differentiate the two. Please advise. >>>>> >>>>> Blue Pimpernel >>>>> Dharamshala, HP >>>>> 1500m approx. >>>>> 13 April 2015 >>>>> >>>>> Thanks. >>>>> Ashwini >>>>> >>>>> <_MG_0235_13April15.jpg> >>>>> <_MG_0234_13April15.jpg> >>>>> <_MG_0223_13April15.jpg> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "efloraofindia" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to [email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix >>>> <http://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix>. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> With regards, >>>> J.M.Garg >>>> 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' >>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> >>>> The whole world uses my Image Resource >>>> <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than a >>>> thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants >>>> etc. (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for >>>> free as per Creative Commons license attached with each image. >>>> For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, >>>> please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group >>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in the >>>> world- more than 2400 members & 2,00,000 messages on 9.9.14) or >>>> Efloraofindia website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with >>>> a species database of more than 10,000 species & 2,00,000 images). Winner >>>> of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia >>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia>. >>>> Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of >>>> India'. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> With regards, >>> J.M.Garg >>> 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' >>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> >>> The whole world uses my Image Resource >>> <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than a >>> thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. >>> (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as >>> per Creative Commons license attached with each image. >>> For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, >>> please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group >>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in the >>> world- more than 2400 members & 2,00,000 messages on 9.9.14) or >>> Efloraofindia website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with >>> a species database of more than 10,000 species & 2,00,000 images). Winner >>> of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia >>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia>. >>> Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of >>> India'. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> With regards, >> J.M.Garg >> 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' >> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> >> The whole world uses my Image Resource >> <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than a >> thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. >> (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as >> per Creative Commons license attached with each image. >> For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, >> please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group >> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in the >> world- more than 2400 members & 2,00,000 messages on 9.9.14) or >> Efloraofindia website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a >> species database of more than 10,000 species & 2,00,000 images). Winner of >> Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia >> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia>. >> Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of >> India'. >> > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. 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