Dears,
Thanks to Mr. Chadwell for his insightful comments. The issue of 'better' or 'inferior' quality tubers would perhaps need more study. Dactylorhiza tubers with five fingers are also quite common. I'll try to make another trip to the typical habitat of the species to get more info this year. Other members including DS Rawat, Anil Thakur, Ashwini, who are actively exploring western-Himalayan flora may take up this issue as a challenge and come together to resolve this by the end of this year. Regards, Dr. G S Goraya, IFS Deputy Director General (Research), Indian Council of Forestry Research & Education, New Forest P.O., Dehradun - 248006. (Uttarakhand, India) Tel. (+91-941-802-5036) ________________________________ From: C CHADWELL <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 3:56 AM To: gurinder goraya; Pankaj Kumar; efloraofindia; J. M. Garg Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:261724] Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in HP & Uttarakhand Interesting. Thanks for sending these images. Let me start with the common habitat - certainly rich and varied. I seem to be able to make out Anemone obtusiloba, Geum elatum (maybe), Potentilla atrosanguinea (probably), Iris (could probably work out which species) and could, also, probably decide upon some other plants there. The average dry weight of the 'tubers' would be of interest, allowing an estimate of the numbers of individual plants dug up. So your estimate was dry weight meaning that the harvested weight of orchids would have by say 10x as much. Wow. Certainly would be useful to the authorities if one can READILY separate the FRESH (and partially dried) tubers and even the dried tubers on morphological characteristics. On the basis of your images, I would say, looking at the tubers that the orchid which had been dug-up between Khelanmarg & Gulmarg, images of which I posted recently, was Dactylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato rather than the Gymnadenia. I will look at the immature fruits and surrounding parts and see, now I have some reference images of G. orchidis to check, which of the two species they seem to fit best. HOPEFULLY this will agree. But I am quite prepared to say if I think it does not or I cannot decide. I have a copy of 'Clear Mirror of Paintings of Tibetan Medicinal Plants' by Dawa which includes dbang-lag - this, on the basis of its flowers and now your images of tubers fits with G.orchidis. It had been named as G. sp. According to an early medieval text 2 forms of dbang-lag are known - SUPERIOR and INFERIOR (such a separation occurs for many Tibetan plants). According to this the tubers with 5 fingers are SUPERIOR - those with less than 5, INFERIOR. My INITIAL thinking is that it may be that GYMNADENIA ORCHIDIS tubers represent the 'superior' type. Assuming the distinction is VALID, then in Ladakh, where ONLY the Dactylorhiza is found, only the INFERIOR form is available. In Tibetan Medicine I regularly come across references to it being known that the SUPERIOR forms come from particular parts of the Himalaya and not others. IF e.g. you are an amchi in Ladakh and cannot assess raw material from E.Himalaya which has SOME of the SUPERIOR forms of plants used in Tibetan Medicine, then you must MAKE DO with what you can obtain. I know little about Ayuvedic Medicine - do such distinctions occur? Another aspect which I am especially curious about is the ALTITUDE a plant is gathered at for medicinal purposes. GENERALLY-SPEAKING, in Tibetan Medicine, the HIGHER the ELEVATION material is collected from, the more 'potent'/ 'better quality' it is considered to be. Indeed the original medieval texts can dictate that material can ONLY be gathered towards the upper altitudinal limit - in some cases. Best Wishes, Chris Chadwell 81 Parlaunt Road SLOUGH SL3 8BE UK www.shpa.org.uk<http://www.shpa.org.uk/> Chris Chadwell - shpa.org.uk<http://www.shpa.org.uk/> www.shpa.org.uk Chris Chadwell - Freelance Lecturer, Botanist, Himalaya Specialist, Travel and Plant Photographer, Freelance photo-journalist ________________________________ From: gurinder goraya <[email protected]> To: Pankaj Kumar <[email protected]>; efloraofindia <[email protected]>; J. M. Garg <[email protected]>; C CHADWELL <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, 24 January 2017, 15:24 Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:261724] Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in HP & Uttarakhand Dears, Find attached four more photographs of Dactylorhiza hatageria and Gymnadenia orchidis showing (a) common habitat; (b) freshly dug tubers of Dactylorhiza hatageria; (c) freshly dug tubers of Gymnadenia orchidis; and (d) comparative image of tubers of both these species. The estimated consumption of Dactylorhiza tubers I have shared with you in my previous mail is based on dry weight only. I don't have dried samples of tubers of either of these species here with me. However, I'll get the average weight of dried tubers soon. Regards, Dr. G S Goraya, IFS Deputy Director General (Research), Indian Council of Forestry Research & Education, New Forest P.O., Dehradun - 248006. (Uttarakhand, India) Tel. (+91-941-802-5036) ________________________________ From: C CHADWELL <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2017 3:33 AM To: gurinder goraya; Pankaj Kumar; efloraofindia; J. M. Garg Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:261724] Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in HP & Uttarakhand Nice photos which clearly differentiate between the two orchids. I would welcome viewing the images of the orchids. Having spent quite a bit of time examining pressed specimens in herbaria and Himalayan plants at the fruiting stage in the wild, think I may well soon be able to differentiate between them at the non-flowering stage. Being able to have good close-up images to compare, which digital cameras permit, also has the potential to transform things. Best Wishes, Chris Chadwell 81 Parlaunt Road SLOUGH SL3 8BE UK www.shpa.org.uk<http://www.shpa.org.uk/> Chris Chadwell - shpa.org.uk<http://www.shpa.org.uk/> www.shpa.org.uk Chris Chadwell - Freelance Lecturer, Botanist, Himalaya Specialist, Travel and Plant Photographer, Freelance photo-journalist Chris Chadwell - shpa.org.uk<http://www.shpa.org.uk/> www.shpa.org.uk Chris Chadwell - Freelance Lecturer, Botanist, Himalaya Specialist, Travel and Plant Photographer, Freelance photo-journalist ________________________________ From: gurinder goraya <[email protected]> To: Pankaj Kumar <[email protected]>; C CHADWELL <[email protected]>; efloraofindia <[email protected]>; J. M. Garg <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, 19 January 2017, 0:59 Subject: Fw: [efloraofindia:261724] Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in HP & Uttarakhand Dears, In continuation of my mail of yesterday, I attach below high resolution images of plants I think are of Dactylorhiza hatageria and Gymnadenia orchidis, clicked from the same location and same day in GHNP, Kullu in Himachal Pradesh. I also dug up tubers of these two orchids and noted that with careful examination it is possible to tell one from the other. I'll share photographs of the tubers also as soon as I am able to locate these. Kindly validate. Regards, Dr. G S Goraya, IFS Deputy Director General (Research), Indian Council of Forestry Research & Education, New Forest P.O., Dehradun - 248006. (Uttarakhand, India) Tel. (+91-941-802-5036) ________________________________ From: gurinder goraya <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 7:23 AM To: Pankaj Kumar; C CHADWELL Cc: J.M. Garg; efloraofindia Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:261724] Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in HP & Uttarakhand Dears, May I join you all in this very interesting and meaningful debate on Dactylorhiza hatageria and Gymnadenia orchisdis. During the course of our field visits to the Great Himalayan National Park in Himachal Pradesh, we have seen both these species growing together at altitude of about 3500 m asl. Had we not stopped for savouring the beauty of these spikes with many hues of pink emerging from the alpine grass mat and for clicking their pictures, we would have passed these as Dactylorhiza hatageria only. It was only close interaction with these that we could notice occurrence of Gymnadenia orchidis mixed with that of Dactylorhiza. None of the local people accompanying our group as porters and routinely making wild collection of medicinal herbs was able to differentiate between the two and were collecting both as 'Salam Panja'. I have NOT noticed Gymnadenia orchidis from Lahaul valley yet, even as have seen Dactylorhiza hatageria in may grasslands, especially along small water channels criss crossing these grasslands. I have been regularly interacting with local people in Himachal Pradesh about the expanse of occurrence of Dactylorhiza hatageria as part of our continuous efforts to understand the wild harvest of the species. I have recently completed a national study to assess demand of medicinal plants in India. An annual consumption of more than 10 metric ton of the entity traded as 'salam panja' (Dactylorhiza hatageria) has been estimated based on consumption data collected from the domestic herbal industry and traders. A part of this annual need (about 6 metric ton) is being met from 'Salam Panja' raw drug received as LoC trade. The remaining matching annual quantity is being collected from the wild in J&K, Himachal Pradesh, and Uttarakhand with some quantity in trade traced back to Arunachal Pradesh. Obviously what is being traded as 'salam panja' is a mix of species. Coming back to the status in the wild, a severe depletion in the wild populations of Dactylorhiza hatageria has been reported in Himachal Pradesh with regeneration not matching with the annual removals of its tubers. At many places the habitat of the species - grass lands with good flow of water in mini channels - has severely dwindled. The species has been assessed as of 'conservation concern' and some efforts towards establishing its nursery and plantation techniques have been initiated, with no great success reported till now. Any idea about how to propagate the species? I'll locate photographs of both these species clicked during my GHNP visit and share with you in a day or two. Regards, Dr. G S Goraya, IFS Deputy Director General (Research), Indian Council of Forestry Research & Education, New Forest P.O., Dehradun - 248006. (Uttarakhand, India) Tel. (+91-941-802-5036) ________________________________ From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Pankaj Kumar <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 6:33 AM To: C CHADWELL Cc: J.M. Garg; efloraofindia Subject: [efloraofindia:261724] Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in HP & Uttarakhand Dear Sir "This means that it is legitimate for amchis (doctors of traditional Tibetan Medicine in Bhutan are known as dungtshos) long resident in Ladakh AND those based a MEN-TSEE-KHANG to collect material for herbal formulations - provided it carried out in a responsible fashion." No that doesn't make it legitimate for amchis to collect. According to Indian laws, they (indian tribals) have the right to collect from their area. Not all Amchis are native indian tribes. Many of them are refugees from Tibet who have limited rights. Please also remember that many of these amchis dont collect plants by themselves, but they hire locals or even outsiders to supply plants to them. How much they collect depends on how much money they want to earn. Infact when the red data book of Indian plants was published in 1986, Dactylorhiza hatagirea was assessed to be Critically Endangered but many disagreed to it including myself. No doubt there has been immense collection of it but as I said above a particular elevation it is common as per my personal observation, but may be it was more common decades ago. Yes Amchis are accepted in Indian Traditional Medicine but I believe many plants are being sold out of India legally or illegally. For example plants like Cordyceps are collected in India but used mainly in Chinese Traditional medicine. Never heard of it being used in India. So you can see the violation of Indian law here. Recently we examined tubers from Hong Kong market and through barcoding we found out that they were Gymnadenia orchidis although the bag was labelled as Dactylorhiza. You will be shocked that in the name of deer femur, we have seen dog femur being sold in Chinese traditional medicine shop. I just feel that they adulterate to make more and easy money or just that they dont know how to differentiate as the tubers are very similar. On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 8:23 AM, C CHADWELL <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: My understanding is that 'Tibetan' Medicine has been officially adopted/sanctioned as a health-care system in India. This means that it is legitimate for amchis (doctors of traditional Tibetan Medicine in Bhutan are known as dungtshos) long resident in Ladakh AND those based a MEN-TSEE-KHANG to collect material for herbal formulations - provided it carried out in a responsible fashion. This would include collection of Dactylorhiza hatagirea (and presumably D.kafiriana) in Ladakh and Himachal Pradesh and Gymnadenia orchidis (if it is present) which are likely to be collected as "dbang-lag". As this has been going on for CENTURIES and D.hatagirea was described in 'Flowers of the Himalaya' and by Stewart as "common" (and the number of amchis operating in Ladakh, much reduced in recent decades) THERE IS NOTHING to suggest that this species is SERIOUSLY Endangered in this part of the Himalaya at least. UNLESS THERE HAS BEEN A MASSIVE INCREASE IN CONSUMPTION WITHIN 'INDIAN' MEDICINE? I assume that amchis in places like Ladakh have collected RESPONSIBLY by NOT remove colonies/ populations of this orchid in their entirety. Since the tubers (roots) are harvested, this involves digging up the whole plant. IF collection takes place AFTER seed has been dispersed, this is less bad. It would be INFORMATIVE if PROPER SURVEYS OF TYPICAL HABITAT FOR THIS ORCHID HAVE BEEN UNDERTAKEN IN LADAKH & LAHOUL to SCIENTIFICALLY ASSESS levels of threat to wild populations. Flora of Lahaul-Spiti STATES that "THE large scale exploitation MAY lead to extinction from the natural habitat" but I ask, what is the ACTUAL EVIDENCE, that this orchid is being collected on a LARGE scale? I do not know the answer to this nor does ANYONE. The image taken for me showing what are likely to be Dactylorhiza hatagirea tubers being dried was in Lahoul. The collectors (presumably operating illegally) were not local men. Yes, it is right and proper to express concerns and one way would surely be to monitor QUANTITY of dried tubers being purchased. But UNLESS there is evidence to INCREASED demand/usage cf. say the 1970s/1980s, when D.hatagirea was considered as "common" in suitable habitats (and thus collection of such quantities appeared sustainable). IF this is the case then CLAIMS of risk of extinction have been EXAGGERATED. I KNOW from personal experience "in the Himalaya" that some species which are CLAIMED to be 'rare and endangered' are NO SUCH THING. Surely, FINITE, resources for a CONSERVATION should be directed towards those species GENUINELY rare. Just because a plant is used for medicinal purposes does NOT automatically mean it is CRITICALLY ENDANGERED (which means it is about to become extinct). CRYING WOLF too often, will, in time cause GREAT harm. Best Wishes, Chris Chadwell 81 Parlaunt Road SLOUGH SL3 8BE UK www.shpa.org.uk<http://www.shpa.org.uk/> ________________________________ From: Pankaj Kumar <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> To: J.M. Garg <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Cc: efloraofindia <indiantreepix@googlegroups. com<mailto:[email protected]>>; C CHADWELL <chrischadwell261@btinternet. com<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: Monday, 16 January 2017, 13:10 Subject: Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in HP & Uttarakhand Just forgot to mention that yes, Amchis are around in himalayan region, some as a part of tibetan refugee and some illegal. But please remember that Dactylorhiza hatagirea atleast is also used in Indian traditional medicine. Pankaj On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 9:06 PM, Pankaj Kumar <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Dear Sir 1. As I see all pink flowers in this thread belong to Dactylorhiza hatagirea. The tubers if collected from this plant then its ok they too are Dactylorhiza. 2.The greenish white flower pic at the end is not clear but does look like Dactylorhiza viridis (=Coeloglossum viride). If you have more pics I can check, because in this particular pic, I cant get any glimpse of the labellum. Just for your information Mr. Kishan Lal passed away recently. He was an engineer by profession and a keen collector. Most of his orchids were either identified by Jeewan and myself till 2008 (following which I had cut off my connections with him).or by BSI. D. viridis colour varies from pale green to green to even red. This is one species extremely widespread and hence such variations are obvious. Thanks and regards Pankaj On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 12:34 PM, J.M. Garg <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Thanks a lot, Chadwell ji. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "C CHADWELL" <[email protected] om<mailto:[email protected]>> Date: 16 Jan 2017 5:59 a.m. Subject: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in HP & Uttarakhand To: "J.M. Garg" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Cc: Aswal & Mehrotra in 'Flora of Lahaul-Spiti' (1999) found D.hatagirea to be common in grassy meadows on slopes at Khoksar. They observed that the tubers are an important ingredient of many Ayurvedic and Unani preparations and therefore collected by the local people for sale. Bor's specimen at Dehra Dun which had been identified as A.maculata is in fact D.hatagirea. A.maculata being a European species which does not occur in India. The plant reported by Aitchison in 1868 as A.maculata is probably A.hatagirea. Koelz (1979) found an attractive rose-coloured orchid common in the meadows of Lahaul, known in Tibetan as 'Wanglak' ( hand-shaped root) used by local doctors of Tibetan Medicine. This was only partially identified as Habernaria sp. Was this Gymnadenia orchidis or perhaps Dactylorhiza (and if so, D.hatagirea or D.kafiriana)? Collet in 'Flora Simlensis' (1921) also got it wrong (presumably following FBI) finding what he thought was Orchis latifolia which he said was the 'Marsh Orchis' of Britain in wet ground at Huttoo. Flower colour dull purple, the lip darker spotted. 'The Valley of Flowers' book lists Orchis latifolia (now Dactylorhiza hatagirea) and Orchis chusua (now Ponerorchis chusua). I am attaching 6 images: 1. A string of Dactylorhiza tubers having been illegally collected in H.P.; photographed on my behalf - I don't expect the Indian collectors (they were not local men) gathered them in a responsible way (which I believe amchis - local doctors of traditional medicine do). 2-4. Images taken by Krishan Lal at Koksar, Lahoul, H.P. of what he thought was D.hatagirea 5. Image of what he thought was Dactylorhiza viride - which Stewart listed as Coleloglossum viride (in the UK this plant is known as the 'Frog Orchid' - the flowers MOSTLY being green. Just taking a quick look, Krishan's image does not fit but we have members with much greater familiarity with Orchidaceae, who can comment more authoritatively. 6. Another image of what he thought was Dactylorhiza viride - which Stewart listed as Coeloglossum viride (in the UK this plant is known as the 'Frog Orchid' - the flowers MOSTLY being green. This seems more promising. Perhaps Krishan made a labelling error (which he did from time-to-time). Just supposing Krishan photos from Gulaba were taken where both Dactylorhiza hatagirea and Coeloglossum viride grew together, the POSSIBILITY of hybrids exists. In the UK, C.viride is known to hybridise with a number of Dactylorhiza species..... Best Wishes, Chris Chadwell 81 Parlaunt Road SLOUGH SL3 8BE UK www.shpa.org.uk<http://www.shpa.org.uk/> -- ****************************** ****************************** ****************************** **************************** Pankaj Kumar, Ph.D. IUCN-SSC Orchid Specialist Group Asia Office: Conservation Officer Orchid Conservation Section Flora Conservation Department Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. Residence: House no. 39, 2nd Floor, Shui Wo Tsuen Lam Tsuen, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. email: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>; [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Phone: +852 2483 7128 (office - 8:30am to 5:00pm); +852 9436 6251 (mobile); Fax: +852 2483 7194 -- ****************************** ****************************** ****************************** **************************** Pankaj Kumar, Ph.D. IUCN-SSC Orchid Specialist Group Asia Office: Conservation Officer Orchid Conservation Section Flora Conservation Department Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. Residence: House no. 39, 2nd Floor, Shui Wo Tsuen Lam Tsuen, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. email: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>; [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Phone: +852 2483 7128 (office - 8:30am to 5:00pm); +852 9436 6251 (mobile); Fax: +852 2483 7194 -- ********************************************************************************************************************** Pankaj Kumar, Ph.D. IUCN-SSC Orchid Specialist Group Asia Office: Conservation Officer Orchid Conservation Section Flora Conservation Department Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. Residence: House no. 39, 2nd Floor, Shui Wo Tsuen Lam Tsuen, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. email: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>; [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Phone: +852 2483 7128 (office - 8:30am to 5:00pm); +852 9436 6251 (mobile); Fax: +852 2483 7194 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send an email to [email protected]. 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