I shall let our orchid specialist formally confirm the IDs of these two
orchids.
Best Wishes,
Chris Chadwell
81 Parlaunt Road
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK
www.shpa.org.uk
From: J.M. Garg <[email protected]>
To: gurinder <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]; efloraofindia
<[email protected]>; Pankaj Kumar <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, 19 January 2017, 13:13
Subject: Re: Fw: [efloraofindia:261782] Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato
in HP & Uttarakhand
Very interesting discussions.
On 19 Jan 2017 6:29 a.m., "gurinder goraya" <[email protected]> wrote:
Dears,
In continuation of my mail of yesterday, I attach below high resolution images
of plants I think are of Dactylorhiza hatageria and Gymnadenia orchidis,
clicked from the same location and same day in GHNP, Kullu in Himachal Pradesh.
I also dug up tubers of these two orchids and noted that with careful
examination it is possible to tell one from the other. I'll share photographs
of the tubers also as soon as I am able to locate these.
Kindly validate.
Regards,
Dr. G S Goraya, IFSDeputy Director General (Research),Indian Council of
Forestry Research & Education,New Forest P.O., Dehradun - 248006.(Uttarakhand,
India) Tel. (+91-941-802-5036)
From: gurinder goraya <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 7:23 AM
To: Pankaj Kumar; C CHADWELL
Cc: J.M. Garg; efloraofindia
Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:261724] Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in HP
& Uttarakhand Dears,
May I join you all in this very interesting and meaningful debate on
Dactylorhiza hatageria andGymnadenia orchisdis.
During the course of our field visits to the Great Himalayan National Park in
Himachal Pradesh, we have seen both these species growing together at altitude
of about 3500 m asl. Had we not stopped for savouring the beauty of these
spikes with many hues of pink emerging from the alpine grass mat and for
clicking their pictures, we would have passed these asDactylorhiza hatageria
only. It was only close interaction with these that we could notice occurrence
ofGymnadenia orchidis mixed with that of Dactylorhiza. None of the local people
accompanying our group as porters and routinely making wild collection of
medicinal herbs was able to differentiate between the two and were collecting
both as 'Salam Panja'. I have NOT noticed Gymnadenia orchidis from Lahaul
valley yet, even as have seenDactylorhiza hatageria in may grasslands,
especially along small water channels criss crossing these grasslands.
I have been regularly interacting with local people in Himachal Pradesh about
the expanse of occurrence ofDactylorhiza hatageria as part of our continuous
efforts to understand the wild harvest of the species. I have recently
completed a national study to assess demand of medicinal plants in India. An
annual consumption of more than 10 metric ton of the entity traded as 'salam
panja' (Dactylorhiza hatageria) has been estimated based on consumption data
collected from the domestic herbal industry and traders. A part of this annual
need (about 6 metric ton) is being met from 'Salam Panja' raw drug received as
LoC trade. The remaining matching annual quantity is being collected from the
wild in J&K, Himachal Pradesh, and Uttarakhand with some quantity in trade
traced back to Arunachal Pradesh. Obviously what is being traded as 'salam
panja' is a mix of species.
Coming back to the status in the wild, a severe depletion in the wild
populations ofDactylorhiza hatageria has been reported in Himachal Pradesh with
regeneration not matching with the annual removals of its tubers. At many
places the habitat of the species - grass lands with good flow of water in mini
channels - has severely dwindled. The species has been assessed as of
'conservation concern' and some efforts towards establishing its nursery and
plantation techniques have been initiated, with no great success reported till
now. Any idea about how to propagate the species?
I'll locate photographs of both these species clicked during my GHNP visit and
share with you in a day or two.
Regards,
Dr. G S Goraya, IFSDeputy Director General (Research),Indian Council of
Forestry Research & Education,New Forest P.O., Dehradun - 248006.(Uttarakhand,
India) Tel. (+91-941-802-5036)
From: [email protected] <indiantreepix@googlegroups. com> on
behalf of Pankaj Kumar <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 6:33 AM
To: C CHADWELL
Cc: J.M. Garg; efloraofindia
Subject: [efloraofindia:261724] Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in HP &
Uttarakhand Dear Sir"This means that it is legitimate for amchis (doctors of
traditional Tibetan Medicine in Bhutan are known as dungtshos) long resident in
Ladakh AND those based a MEN-TSEE-KHANG to collect material for herbal
formulations - provided it carried out in a responsible fashion."
No that doesn't make it legitimate for amchis to collect. According to Indian
laws, they (indian tribals) have the right to collect from their area. Not all
Amchis are native indian tribes. Many of them are refugees from Tibet who have
limited rights. Please also remember that many of these amchis dont collect
plants by themselves, but they hire locals or even outsiders to supply plants
to them. How much they collect depends on how much money they want to earn.
Infact when the red data book of Indian plants was published in 1986,
Dactylorhiza hatagirea was assessed to be Critically Endangered but many
disagreed to it including myself. No doubt there has been immense collection of
it but as I said above a particular elevation it is common as per my personal
observation, but may be it was more common decades ago.
Yes Amchis are accepted in Indian Traditional Medicine but I believe many
plants are being sold out of India legally or illegally. For example plants
like Cordyceps are collected in India but used mainly in Chinese Traditional
medicine. Never heard of it being used in India. So you can see the violation
of Indian law here. Recently we examined tubers from Hong Kong market and
through barcoding we found out that they were Gymnadenia orchidis although the
bag was labelled as Dactylorhiza. You will be shocked that in the name of deer
femur, we have seen dog femur being sold in Chinese traditional medicine shop.
I just feel that they adulterate to make more and easy money or just that they
dont know how to differentiate as the tubers are very similar.
On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 8:23 AM, C CHADWELL <chrischadwell261@btinternet. com>
wrote:
My understanding is that 'Tibetan' Medicine has been officially
adopted/sanctioned as a health-caresystem in India.
This means that it is legitimate for amchis (doctors of traditional Tibetan
Medicine in Bhutan are knownas dungtshos) long resident in Ladakh AND those
based a MEN-TSEE-KHANG to collect material forherbal formulations - provided
it carried out in a responsible fashion.
This would include collection of Dactylorhiza hatagirea (and presumably
D.kafiriana) in Ladakh and Himachal Pradeshand Gymnadenia orchidis (if it is
present) which are likely to be collected as "dbang-lag".
As this has been going on for CENTURIES and D.hatagirea was described in
'Flowers of the Himalaya'and by Stewart as "common" (and the number of amchis
operating in Ladakh, much reduced in recentdecades) THERE IS NOTHING to suggest
that this species is SERIOUSLY Endangered in this part ofthe Himalaya at least.
UNLESS THERE HAS BEEN A MASSIVE INCREASE IN CONSUMPTION WITHIN'INDIAN'
MEDICINE?
I assume that amchis in places like Ladakh have collected RESPONSIBLY by NOT
remove colonies/populations of this orchid in their entirety. Since the tubers
(roots) are harvested, this involvesdigging up the whole plant. IF collection
takes place AFTER seed has been dispersed, this is less bad.
It would be INFORMATIVE if PROPER SURVEYS OF TYPICAL HABITAT FOR THIS ORCHID
HAVEBEEN UNDERTAKEN IN LADAKH & LAHOUL to SCIENTIFICALLY ASSESS levels of
threat towild populations.
Flora of Lahaul-Spiti STATES that "THE large scale exploitation MAY lead to
extinction from thenatural habitat" but I ask, what is the ACTUAL EVIDENCE,
that this orchid is being collected on aLARGE scale? I do not know the answer
to this nor does ANYONE.
The image taken for me showing what are likely to be Dactylorhiza hatagirea
tubers being dried wasin Lahoul. The collectors (presumably operating
illegally) were not local men.
Yes, it is right and proper to express concerns and one way would surely be to
monitor QUANTITYof dried tubers being purchased.
But UNLESS there is evidence to INCREASED demand/usage cf. say the 1970s/1980s,
when D.hatagireawas considered as "common" in suitable habitats (and thus
collection of such quantities appearedsustainable). IF this is the case then
CLAIMS of risk of extinction have been EXAGGERATED.
I KNOW from personal experience "in the Himalaya" that some species which are
CLAIMED to be'rare and endangered' are NO SUCH THING.
Surely, FINITE, resources for a CONSERVATION should be directed towards those
species GENUINELYrare.
Just because a plant is used for medicinal purposes does NOT automatically mean
it is CRITICALLYENDANGERED (which means it is about to become extinct).
CRYING WOLF too often, will, in time cause GREAT harm.
Best Wishes,
Chris Chadwell
81 Parlaunt Road
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK
www.shpa.org.uk
From: Pankaj Kumar <[email protected]>
To: J.M. Garg <[email protected]>
Cc: efloraofindia <[email protected] m>; C CHADWELL
<[email protected] om>
Sent: Monday, 16 January 2017, 13:10
Subject: Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in HP & Uttarakhand
Just forgot to mention that yes, Amchis are around in himalayan region, some as
a part of tibetan refugee and some illegal. But please remember that
Dactylorhiza hatagirea atleast is also used in Indian traditional
medicine.Pankaj
On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 9:06 PM, Pankaj Kumar<[email protected]> wrote:
Dear Sir
1. As I see all pink flowers in this thread belong to Dactylorhiza hatagirea.
The tubers if collected from this plant then its ok they too are Dactylorhiza.
2.The greenish white flower pic at the end is not clear but does look like
Dactylorhiza viridis (=Coeloglossum viride). If you have more pics I can check,
because in this particular pic, I cant get any glimpse of the labellum. Just
for your information Mr. Kishan Lal passed away recently. He was an engineer by
profession and a keen collector. Most of his orchids were either identified by
Jeewan and myself till 2008 (following which I had cut off my connections with
him).or by BSI. D. viridis colour varies from pale green to green to even red.
This is one species extremely widespread and hence such variations are obvious.
Thanks and regardsPankaj
On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 12:34 PM, J.M. Garg<[email protected]> wrote:
Thanks a lot, Chadwell ji. ---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "C CHADWELL" <[email protected] om>
Date: 16 Jan 2017 5:59 a.m.
Subject: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in HP & Uttarakhand
To: "J.M. Garg" <[email protected]>
Cc:
Aswal & Mehrotra in 'Flora of Lahaul-Spiti' (1999) found D.hatagirea to be
common in grassy meadows on slopesat Khoksar.
They observed that the tubers are an important ingredient of many Ayurvedic and
Unani preparations and thereforecollected by the local people for sale.
Bor's specimen at Dehra Dun which had been identified as A.maculata is in fact
D.hatagirea. A.maculata being aEuropean species which does not occur in India.
The plant reported by Aitchison in 1868 as A.maculata is probablyA.hatagirea.
Koelz (1979) found an attractive rose-coloured orchid common in the meadows of
Lahaul, known in Tibetan as 'Wanglak' (hand-shaped root) used by local doctors
of Tibetan Medicine. This was only partially identified as Habernaria sp.
Was thisGymnadenia orchidis or perhaps Dactylorhiza (and if so, D.hatagirea or
D.kafiriana)?
Collet in 'Flora Simlensis' (1921) also got it wrong (presumably following FBI)
finding what he thought was Orchis latifoliawhich he said was the 'Marsh
Orchis' of Britain in wet ground at Huttoo. Flower colour dull purple, the lip
darker spotted.
'The Valley of Flowers' book lists Orchis latifolia (now Dactylorhiza
hatagirea) and Orchis chusua (now Ponerorchis chusua).
I am attaching 6 images:
1. A string of Dactylorhiza tubers having been illegally collected in H.P.;
photographed on my behalf - I don't expect theIndian collectors (they were not
local men) gathered them in a responsible way (which I believe amchis - local
doctors oftraditional medicine do).
2-4. Images taken by Krishan Lal at Koksar, Lahoul, H.P. of what he thought
was D.hatagirea
5. Image of what he thought was Dactylorhiza viride - which Stewart listed as
Coleloglossum viride (in the UK thisplant is known as the 'Frog Orchid' - the
flowers MOSTLY being green. Just taking a quick look, Krishan's image doesnot
fit but we have members with much greater familiarity with Orchidaceae, who can
comment more authoritatively.
6. Another image of what he thought was Dactylorhiza viride - which Stewart
listed as Coeloglossum viride (in the UK thisplant is known as the 'Frog
Orchid' - the flowers MOSTLY being green. This seems more promising. Perhaps
Krishan madea labelling error (which he did from time-to-time).
Just supposing Krishan photos from Gulaba were taken where both Dactylorhiza
hatagirea and Coeloglossum viride grew together,the POSSIBILITY of hybrids
exists. In the UK, C.viride is known to hybridise with a number of
Dactylorhiza species.....
Best Wishes,
Chris Chadwell
81 Parlaunt Road
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK
www.shpa.org.uk
--
****************************** ******************************
****************************** ****************************
Pankaj Kumar, Ph.D.
IUCN-SSC Orchid Specialist Group Asia
Office:
Conservation Officer
Orchid Conservation Section
Flora Conservation Department
Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation
Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong.
Residence:
House no. 39, 2nd Floor, Shui Wo TsuenLam Tsuen, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong
Kong.
email: [email protected]; [email protected]
Phone: +852 2483 7128 (office - 8:30am to 5:00pm); +852 9436 6251 (mobile);
Fax:+852 2483 7194
--
****************************** ******************************
****************************** ****************************
Pankaj Kumar, Ph.D.
IUCN-SSC Orchid Specialist Group Asia
Office:
Conservation Officer
Orchid Conservation Section
Flora Conservation Department
Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation
Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong.
Residence:
House no. 39, 2nd Floor, Shui Wo TsuenLam Tsuen, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong
Kong.
email: [email protected]; [email protected]
Phone: +852 2483 7128 (office - 8:30am to 5:00pm); +852 9436 6251 (mobile);
Fax:+852 2483 7194
--
****************************** ******************************
****************************** ****************************
Pankaj Kumar, Ph.D.
IUCN-SSC Orchid Specialist Group Asia
Office:
Conservation Officer
Orchid Conservation Section
Flora Conservation Department
Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation
Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong.
Residence:
House no. 39, 2nd Floor, Shui Wo TsuenLam Tsuen, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong
Kong.
email: [email protected]; [email protected]
Phone: +852 2483 7128 (office - 8:30am to 5:00pm); +852 9436 6251 (mobile);
Fax: +852 2483 7194
--
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