Dear Sir Do you mean that the tubers of the two species can be differentiated morphologically? Regards Pankaj
On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 12:23 PM, J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote: > Thanks a lot, Gurinder ji > > On 24 Jan 2017 9:07 p.m., "gurinder goraya" <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Dears, >> >> >> Kindly see the trailing mail containing details of the photographs. I am >> resending slightly compressed photographs as the high resolution images did >> not get uploaded. >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> Dr. G S Goraya, IFS >> Deputy Director General (Research), >> Indian Council of Forestry Research & Education, >> New Forest P.O., Dehradun - 248006. >> (Uttarakhand, India) >> Tel. (+91-941-802-5036) >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* gurinder goraya <[email protected]> >> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 24, 2017 8:54 PM >> *To:* Pankaj Kumar; efloraofindia; J. M. Garg; C CHADWELL >> *Subject:* Re: [efloraofindia:261724] Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu >> lato in HP & Uttarakhand >> >> >> Dears, >> >> >> Find attached four more photographs of *Dactylorhiza hatageria* and >> *Gymnadenia >> orchidis* showing (a) common habitat; (b) freshly dug tubers of *Dactylorhiza >> hatageria*; (c) freshly dug tubers of *Gymnadenia orchidis*; and (d) >> comparative image of tubers of both these species. >> >> >> The estimated consumption of Dactylorhiza tubers I have shared with you >> in my previous mail is based on dry weight only. I don't have dried samples >> of tubers of either of these species here with me. However, I'll get the >> average weight of dried tubers soon. >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> Dr. G S Goraya, IFS >> Deputy Director General (Research), >> Indian Council of Forestry Research & Education, >> New Forest P.O., Dehradun - 248006. >> (Uttarakhand, India) >> Tel. (+91-941-802-5036) >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* C CHADWELL <[email protected]> >> *Sent:* Saturday, January 21, 2017 3:33 AM >> *To:* gurinder goraya; Pankaj Kumar; efloraofindia; J. M. Garg >> *Subject:* Re: [efloraofindia:261724] Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu >> lato in HP & Uttarakhand >> >> Nice photos which clearly differentiate between the two orchids. >> >> I would welcome viewing the images of the orchids. >> >> Having spent quite a bit of time examining pressed specimens in herbaria >> and Himalayan plants >> at the fruiting stage in the wild, think I may well soon be able to >> differentiate between them at the >> non-flowering stage. >> >> Being able to have good close-up images to compare, which digital cameras >> permit, also has the >> potential to transform things. >> >> >> Best Wishes, >> >> >> Chris Chadwell >> >> >> 81 Parlaunt Road >> SLOUGH >> SL3 8BE >> UK >> >> www.shpa.org.uk >> Chris Chadwell - shpa.org.uk <http://www.shpa.org.uk/> >> www.shpa.org.uk >> Chris Chadwell - Freelance Lecturer, Botanist, Himalaya Specialist, >> Travel and Plant Photographer, Freelance photo-journalist >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* gurinder goraya <[email protected]> >> *To:* Pankaj Kumar <[email protected]>; C CHADWELL < >> [email protected]>; efloraofindia < >> [email protected]>; J. M. Garg <[email protected]> >> *Sent:* Thursday, 19 January 2017, 0:59 >> *Subject:* Fw: [efloraofindia:261724] Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu >> lato in HP & Uttarakhand >> >> Dears, >> >> In continuation of my mail of yesterday, I attach below high >> resolution images of plants I think are of Dactylorhiza hatageria and >> Gymnadenia orchidis, clicked from the same location and same day in GHNP, >> Kullu in Himachal Pradesh. I also dug up tubers of these two orchids and >> noted that with careful examination it is possible to tell one from the >> other. I'll share photographs of the tubers also as soon as I am able to >> locate these. >> >> Kindly validate. >> >> Regards, >> >> Dr. G S Goraya, IFS >> Deputy Director General (Research), >> Indian Council of Forestry Research & Education, >> New Forest P.O., Dehradun - 248006. >> (Uttarakhand, India) >> Tel. (+91-941-802-5036) >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* gurinder goraya <[email protected]> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 18, 2017 7:23 AM >> *To:* Pankaj Kumar; C CHADWELL >> *Cc:* J.M. Garg; efloraofindia >> *Subject:* Re: [efloraofindia:261724] Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu >> lato in HP & Uttarakhand >> >> Dears, >> >> May I join you all in this very interesting and meaningful debate on >> *Dactylorhiza >> hatageria* and *Gymnadenia orchisdis*. >> >> During the course of our field visits to the Great Himalayan National >> Park in Himachal Pradesh, we have seen both these species growing together >> at altitude of about 3500 m asl. Had we not stopped for savouring the >> beauty of these spikes with many hues of pink emerging from the >> alpine grass mat and for clicking their pictures, we would have passed >> these as *Dactylorhiza hatageria* only. It was only close interaction >> with these that we could notice occurrence of *Gymnadenia orchidis* mixed >> with that of *Dactylorhiza*. None of the local people accompanying our >> group as porters and routinely making wild collection of medicinal >> herbs was able to differentiate between the two and were collecting both as >> 'Salam Panja'. I have NOT noticed *Gymnadenia orchidis* from Lahaul >> valley yet, even as have seen *Dactylorhiza hatageria* in may >> grasslands, especially along small water channels criss crossing these >> grasslands. >> >> I have been regularly interacting with local people in Himachal >> Pradesh about the expanse of occurrence of *Dactylorhiza hatageria* as >> part of our continuous efforts to understand the wild harvest of the >> species. I have recently completed a national study to assess demand of >> medicinal plants in India. An annual consumption of more than 10 metric ton >> of the entity traded as 'salam panja' (*Dactylorhiza hatageria*) has >> been estimated based on consumption data collected from the domestic herbal >> industry and traders. A part of this annual need (about 6 metric ton) is >> being met from 'Salam Panja' raw drug received as LoC trade. The remaining >> matching annual quantity is being collected from the wild in J&K, Himachal >> Pradesh, and Uttarakhand with some quantity in trade traced back >> to Arunachal Pradesh. Obviously what is being traded as 'salam panja' is a >> mix of species. >> >> Coming back to the status in the wild, a severe depletion in the wild >> populations of *Dactylorhiza hatageria* has been reported in Himachal >> Pradesh with regeneration not matching with the annual removals of its >> tubers. At many places the habitat of the species - grass lands with good >> flow of water in mini channels - has severely dwindled. The species has >> been assessed as of 'conservation concern' and some efforts >> towards establishing its nursery and plantation techniques have been >> initiated, with no great success reported till now. Any idea about how to >> propagate the species? >> >> I'll locate photographs of both these species clicked during my GHNP >> visit and share with you in a day or two. >> >> Regards, >> >> Dr. G S Goraya, IFS >> Deputy Director General (Research), >> Indian Council of Forestry Research & Education, >> New Forest P.O., Dehradun - 248006. >> (Uttarakhand, India) >> Tel. (+91-941-802-5036) >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> >> on behalf of Pankaj Kumar <[email protected]> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 18, 2017 6:33 AM >> *To:* C CHADWELL >> *Cc:* J.M. Garg; efloraofindia >> *Subject:* [efloraofindia:261724] Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato >> in HP & Uttarakhand >> >> Dear Sir >> "This means that it is legitimate for amchis (doctors of traditional >> Tibetan Medicine in Bhutan are known as dungtshos) long resident in Ladakh >> AND those based a MEN-TSEE-KHANG to collect material for herbal >> formulations - provided it carried out in a responsible fashion." >> >> No that doesn't make it legitimate for amchis to collect. According to >> Indian laws, they (indian tribals) have the right to collect from their >> area. Not all Amchis are native indian tribes. Many of them are refugees >> from Tibet who have limited rights. Please also remember that many of these >> amchis dont collect plants by themselves, but they hire locals or even >> outsiders to supply plants to them. How much they collect depends on how >> much money they want to earn. >> >> Infact when the red data book of Indian plants was published in 1986, >> Dactylorhiza hatagirea was assessed to be Critically Endangered but many >> disagreed to it including myself. No doubt there has been immense >> collection of it but as I said above a particular elevation it is common as >> per my personal observation, but may be it was more common decades ago. >> >> Yes Amchis are accepted in Indian Traditional Medicine but I believe many >> plants are being sold out of India legally or illegally. For example plants >> like Cordyceps are collected in India but used mainly in Chinese >> Traditional medicine. Never heard of it being used in India. So you can see >> the violation of Indian law here. Recently we examined tubers from Hong >> Kong market and through barcoding we found out that they were Gymnadenia >> orchidis although the bag was labelled as Dactylorhiza. You will be shocked >> that in the name of deer femur, we have seen dog femur being sold in >> Chinese traditional medicine shop. >> >> I just feel that they adulterate to make more and easy money or just that >> they dont know how to differentiate as the tubers are very similar. >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 8:23 AM, C CHADWELL < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> My understanding is that 'Tibetan' Medicine has been officially >> adopted/sanctioned as a health-care >> system in India. >> >> This means that it is legitimate for amchis (doctors of traditional >> Tibetan Medicine in Bhutan are known >> as dungtshos) long resident in Ladakh AND those based a MEN-TSEE-KHANG to >> collect material for >> herbal formulations - provided it carried out in a responsible fashion. >> >> This would include collection of Dactylorhiza hatagirea (and presumably >> D.kafiriana) in Ladakh and Himachal Pradesh >> and Gymnadenia orchidis (if it is present) which are likely to be >> collected as "dbang-lag". >> >> As this has been going on for CENTURIES and D.hatagirea was described in >> 'Flowers of the Himalaya' >> and by Stewart as "common" (and the number of amchis operating in Ladakh, >> much reduced in recent >> decades) THERE IS NOTHING to suggest that this species is SERIOUSLY >> Endangered in this part of >> the Himalaya at least. UNLESS THERE HAS BEEN A MASSIVE INCREASE IN >> CONSUMPTION WITHIN >> 'INDIAN' MEDICINE? >> >> I assume that amchis in places like Ladakh have collected RESPONSIBLY by >> NOT remove colonies/ >> populations of this orchid in their entirety. Since the tubers (roots) >> are harvested, this involves >> digging up the whole plant. IF collection takes place AFTER seed has >> been dispersed, this is less bad. >> >> *It would be INFORMATIVE if PROPER SURVEYS OF TYPICAL HABITAT FOR THIS >> ORCHID HAVE * >> *BEEN UNDERTAKEN IN LADAKH & LAHOUL to SCIENTIFICALLY ASSESS levels of >> threat to* >> *wild populations. * >> >> *Flora of Lahaul-Spiti STATES that "THE large scale exploitation MAY lead >> to extinction from the* >> *natural habitat" but I ask, what is the ACTUAL EVIDENCE, that this >> orchid is being collected on a* >> *LARGE scale? I do not know the answer to this nor does ANYONE.* >> >> *The image taken for me showing what are likely to be Dactylorhiza >> hatagirea tubers being dried was* >> *in Lahoul. The collectors (presumably operating illegally) were not >> local men.* >> >> *Yes, it is right and proper to express concerns and one way would surely >> be to monitor QUANTITY* >> *of dried tubers being purchased. * >> >> *But UNLESS there is evidence to INCREASED demand/usage cf. say the >> 1970s/1980s, when D.hatagirea* >> *was considered as "common" in suitable habitats (and thus collection of >> such quantities appeared * >> *sustainable). IF this is the case then CLAIMS of risk of extinction >> have been EXAGGERATED.* >> >> *I KNOW from personal experience "in the Himalaya" that some species >> which are CLAIMED to be* >> *'rare and endangered' are NO SUCH THING.* >> >> *Surely, FINITE, resources for a CONSERVATION should be directed towards >> those species GENUINELY* >> *rare.* >> >> *Just because a plant is used for medicinal purposes does NOT >> automatically mean it is CRITICALLY* >> *ENDANGERED (which means it is about to become extinct).* >> >> *CRYING WOLF too often, will, in time cause GREAT harm.* >> >> >> Best Wishes, >> >> >> Chris Chadwell >> >> >> 81 Parlaunt Road >> SLOUGH >> SL3 8BE >> UK >> >> www.shpa.org.uk >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Pankaj Kumar <[email protected]> >> *To:* J.M. Garg <[email protected]> >> *Cc:* efloraofindia <indiantreepix@googlegroups. com >> <[email protected]>>; C CHADWELL <chrischadwell261@btinternet. >> com <[email protected]>> >> *Sent:* Monday, 16 January 2017, 13:10 >> *Subject:* Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in HP & Uttarakhand >> >> Just forgot to mention that yes, Amchis are around in himalayan region, >> some as a part of tibetan refugee and some illegal. But please remember >> that Dactylorhiza hatagirea atleast is also used in Indian traditional >> medicine. >> Pankaj >> >> >> On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 9:06 PM, Pankaj Kumar <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> Dear Sir >> >> 1. As I see all pink flowers in this thread belong to Dactylorhiza >> hatagirea. The tubers if collected from this plant then its ok they too are >> Dactylorhiza. >> >> 2.The greenish white flower pic at the end is not clear but does look >> like Dactylorhiza viridis (=Coeloglossum viride). If you have more pics I >> can check, because in this particular pic, I cant get any glimpse of the >> labellum. Just for your information Mr. Kishan Lal passed away recently. He >> was an engineer by profession and a keen collector. Most of his orchids >> were either identified by Jeewan and myself till 2008 (following which I >> had cut off my connections with him).or by BSI. D. viridis colour varies >> from pale green to green to even red. This is one species extremely >> widespread and hence such variations are obvious. >> >> Thanks and regards >> Pankaj >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 12:34 PM, J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Thanks a lot, Chadwell ji. >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: "C CHADWELL" <[email protected] om >> <[email protected]>> >> Date: 16 Jan 2017 5:59 a.m. >> Subject: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in HP & Uttarakhand >> To: "J.M. Garg" <[email protected]> >> Cc: >> >> Aswal & Mehrotra in 'Flora of Lahaul-Spiti' (1999) found D.hatagirea to >> be common in grassy meadows on slopes >> at Khoksar. >> >> They observed that the tubers are an important ingredient of many >> Ayurvedic and Unani preparations and therefore >> collected by the local people for sale. >> >> Bor's specimen at Dehra Dun which had been identified as A.maculata is in >> fact D.hatagirea. A.maculata being a >> European species which does not occur in India. The plant reported by >> Aitchison in 1868 as A.maculata is probably >> A.hatagirea. >> >> Koelz (1979) found an attractive rose-coloured orchid common in the >> meadows of Lahaul, known in Tibetan as 'Wanglak' ( >> hand-shaped root) used by local doctors of Tibetan Medicine. This was >> only partially identified as Habernaria sp. Was this >> Gymnadenia orchidis or perhaps Dactylorhiza (and if so, D.hatagirea or >> D.kafiriana)? >> >> Collet in 'Flora Simlensis' (1921) also got it wrong (presumably >> following FBI) finding what he thought was Orchis latifolia >> which he said was the 'Marsh Orchis' of Britain in wet ground at Huttoo. >> Flower colour dull purple, the lip darker spotted. >> >> 'The Valley of Flowers' book lists Orchis latifolia (now Dactylorhiza >> hatagirea) and Orchis chusua (now Ponerorchis chusua). >> >> I am attaching 6 images: >> >> 1. A string of Dactylorhiza tubers having been illegally collected in >> H.P.; photographed on my behalf - I don't expect the >> Indian collectors (they were not local men) gathered them in a >> responsible way (which I believe amchis - local doctors of >> traditional medicine do). >> >> 2-4. Images taken by Krishan Lal at Koksar, Lahoul, H.P. of what he >> thought was D.hatagirea >> >> 5. Image of what he thought was Dactylorhiza viride - which Stewart >> listed as Coleloglossum viride (in the UK this >> plant is known as the 'Frog Orchid' - the flowers MOSTLY being green. >> Just taking a quick look, Krishan's image does >> not fit but we have members with much greater familiarity with >> Orchidaceae, who can comment more authoritatively. >> >> 6. Another image of what he thought was Dactylorhiza viride - which >> Stewart listed as Coeloglossum viride (in the UK this >> plant is known as the 'Frog Orchid' - the flowers MOSTLY being green. >> This seems more promising. Perhaps Krishan made >> a labelling error (which he did from time-to-time). >> >> Just supposing Krishan photos from Gulaba were taken where both >> Dactylorhiza hatagirea and Coeloglossum viride grew together, >> the POSSIBILITY of hybrids exists. *In the UK, C.viride is known to >> hybridise with a number of Dactylorhiza species.....* >> >> >> >> >> Best Wishes, >> >> >> Chris Chadwell >> >> >> 81 Parlaunt Road >> SLOUGH >> SL3 8BE >> UK >> >> www.shpa.org.uk >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> ****************************** ****************************** >> ****************************** **************************** >> *Pankaj Kumar*, Ph.D. >> *IUCN-SSC Orchid Specialist Group Asia* >> >> *Office*: >> >> Conservation Officer >> >> Orchid Conservation Section >> >> Flora Conservation Department >> >> Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation >> Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. >> >> *Residence*: >> House no. 39, 2nd Floor, Shui Wo Tsuen >> Lam Tsuen, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. >> *email*: [email protected]; [email protected] >> *Phone*: +852 2483 7128 (office - 8:30am to 5:00pm); +852 9436 6251 >> (mobile); *Fax*: +852 2483 7194 >> >> >> >> >> -- >> ****************************** ****************************** >> ****************************** **************************** >> *Pankaj Kumar*, Ph.D. >> *IUCN-SSC Orchid Specialist Group Asia* >> >> *Office*: >> >> Conservation Officer >> >> Orchid Conservation Section >> >> Flora Conservation Department >> >> Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation >> Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. >> >> *Residence*: >> House no. 39, 2nd Floor, Shui Wo Tsuen >> Lam Tsuen, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. >> *email*: [email protected]; [email protected] >> *Phone*: +852 2483 7128 (office - 8:30am to 5:00pm); +852 9436 6251 >> (mobile); *Fax*: +852 2483 7194 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> ************************************************************ >> ********************************************************** >> *Pankaj Kumar*, Ph.D. >> *IUCN-SSC Orchid Specialist Group Asia* >> >> *Office*: >> >> Conservation Officer >> >> Orchid Conservation Section >> >> Flora Conservation Department >> >> Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation >> Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. >> >> *Residence*: >> House no. 39, 2nd Floor, Shui Wo Tsuen >> Lam Tsuen, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. >> *email*: [email protected]; [email protected] >> *Phone*: +852 2483 7128 <2483%207128> (office - 8:30am to 5:00pm); +852 >> 9436 6251 <9436%206251> (mobile); *Fax*: +852 2483 7194 <2483%207194> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "efloraofindia" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> -- ****************************************************** **************************************************************** *Pankaj Kumar*, Ph.D. *IUCN-SSC Orchid Specialist Group Asia* *Office*: Conservation Officer Orchid Conservation Section Flora Conservation Department Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. *Residence*: House no. 39, 2nd Floor, Shui Wo Tsuen Lam Tsuen, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. *email*: [email protected]; [email protected] *Phone*: +852 2483 7128 (office - 8:30am to 5:00pm); +852 9436 6251 (mobile); *Fax*: +852 2483 7194 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group. 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