By the way, this Spiranthes issue was raised by Sid and his PhD supervisor here at HK and very interestingly, just few days before meetign Prof. Sun and discussing with Sid, the plant flowered here in our green house. I asked Dr. Stephan Gale whats the difference and he said sinensis is glabrous and hongkongensis is hairy. So all these created big doubts in my head as I know very well that Indian ones are not glabrous at all. Lets hope to come to some conclusion soon. My preliminary doubts say that S. australis should be accepted name with hongkongensis as one of the synonyms, but Prof. Sun says they all are different. Pankaj
On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 4:13 PM, Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > I wish we keep the thread an academic one only. Here is the information I > have: > > In Flora of British India the species was described under the name > Spiranthes australis (R. Br.) Lindl., A species name (rather combination) > proposed in 1824, based on Neottia australis R. Br. (1810), a species > supposed to have pubescent inflorescence spike (it is also supposed to have > pubescent bracts and floral parts partly as I read from other sources). > > Spiranthes sinensis (Pers.) Ames, is a name (rather combination) given in > 1908, based on Neottia sinensis Pers. (1807), a species described from > China and differing in glabrous spikes (and bracts and floral parts). > > It has recently been considered by most authors (including Flora of China, > Flora of Pakistan, etc.) that these two taxa are synonyms, and as basionym > of latter is dated earlier, Spiranthes sinensis is accepted name. > > It must be remembered that it is matter of taxonomic judgement (and not a > simple issue of names), as the two species were originally described as > distinct species (they have distinct types). For those who consider the > differences are not enough would treat them under single species S. > sinensis. Those who think (like original authors) that differences are > sufficient, and are also trying to detect further differences to strengthen > their distinct identity, would consider them as two separate species. I > think Pankaj Sahni ji is just trying to do that, trying to settle the > riddle, and he being a world renowned Orchid specialist is both qualified > to do that. More so he owes the duty of resolving it for us. Let us > appreciate that. > > > > -- > Dr. Gurcharan Singh > Retired Associate Professor > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 > http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/ > http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ > > > > On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 12:27 PM, Pankaj Oudhia <[email protected]>wrote: > >> Just found that this important thread has converted into personal ego >> issue. There is nothing personal. I was just quoting the reference >> literature as Gurcharanj ji always suggest. Will be happy if the members >> can throw more light on the topic we are discussing instead of personal >> issues. >> >> regards >> >> Pankaj Oudhia >> >> On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 9:46 AM, Pankaj Kumar <[email protected]>wrote: >> >>> hehehehe.... thank you sir... >>> I am here till I am alive... :) >>> Pankaj >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 12:14 PM, Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]>wrote: >>> >>>> Pankaj Sahni ji >>>> Hamen Iss Group menh aap ki bahut zarurat hai >>>> Bhaghwan apne bhagton ko naraz nahi karen gai. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>>> Retired Associate Professor >>>> >>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>>> http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/ >>>> http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 12:58 PM, Pankaj Kumar >>>> <[email protected]>wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hey bhagwaan utha le mujhko...... >>>>> Often is used here because earlier authors used it saying sinensis >>>>> OFTEN has hairs.... >>>>> So Mrs Barretto said the one which often has hairs are hongkongensis >>>>> and not sinensis. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 3:25 PM, Pankaj Oudhia <[email protected] >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Quoting the original text >>>>>> >>>>>> Since it *(i.e.Spiranthes honkongensis)* was first described, this >>>>>> species has largely been ignored >>>>>> by subsequent authors who have referred it to synonymy of Spiranthes >>>>>> sinensis. However, Hu and Barretto (Chung Chi J. 13(2): 4–6. 1976) >>>>>> identified the often densely glandular pubescent rachis, glandular >>>>>> pubescent >>>>>> floral bracts and sepals, and the broad, distinctly 3-lobed stigma as >>>>>> clear morphological characters that distinguish it from S. sinensis. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> "Often densely glandular pubescent rachis" is for S. honkongensis not >>>>>> for S.sinensis. "Often" is with meaning in this line. I repeat Often is >>>>>> not >>>>>> synonym for Always. >>>>>> >>>>>> regards >>>>>> >>>>>> Pankaj Oudhia >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 12:51 PM, Pankaj Kumar < >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> There is a reason why I said that. Because, >>>>>>> 1. People think that Spiranthes sinensis is often pubescent so they >>>>>>> described both glabrous one and the non glabrous one as S. sinensis. >>>>>>> 2. But according to the original descriptions only the glabrous one >>>>>>> should have been Spiranthes sinensis. >>>>>>> 3. On the contrary, Spiranthes australis and Spiranthes >>>>>>> hongkongensis are pubescent and sometimes even with glandular hairs. So >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> plant with hairs from India cant be sinensis. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 3:18 PM, Pankaj Kumar < >>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There is a reason why I said that. Because, >>>>>>>> 1. People think that Spiranthes sinensis is often pubescent so they >>>>>>>> described both glabrous one and the non glabrous one as S. sinensis. >>>>>>>> 2. But to the original descriptions only the glabrous one should >>>>>>>> have been Spiranthes sinensis. >>>>>>>> 3. O >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 3:16 PM, Pankaj Oudhia < >>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks. I am quoting your two statements from this thread. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Earlier >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "S. sinensis is not supposed to be pubescent originally. But your >>>>>>>>> plant seems pubescent." >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Now >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "Often densly pubescent hairs with reference to sinensis which was >>>>>>>>> often present with densely pubescent hairs." >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Both are not same quotes. Isn't it? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> regards >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Pankaj Oudhia >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 12:33 PM, Pankaj Kumar < >>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It has been written in different sense sir. Often densly >>>>>>>>>> pubescent hairs with reference to sinensis which was often present >>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>> densely pubescent hairs. >>>>>>>>>> So they made a new species of the one which had hairs. >>>>>>>>>> I have not met Mrs Barretto but happened to have met Dr Sun >>>>>>>>>> recently. She is the one who evoked my doubts. >>>>>>>>>> Best regards >>>>>>>>>> Pankaj >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Pankaj Oudhia < >>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Flora of China Vol.25. Chapter on Spiranthes. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> regards >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Pankaj Oudhia >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 6:35 AM, Dr Pankaj Kumar < >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Which reference are you talking about? >>>>>>>>>>>> Pankaj >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, 8 December 2009 00:47:53 UTC+8, Gurcharan Singh >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sending Spiranthes sinensis (Pers.) Ames (syn: S. australis >>>>>>>>>>>>> (R. Br.) Lindley) from Manali, HP >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Pankaj ji and Nayan ji, one of the very few orchids I know, >>>>>>>>>>>>> and that too if it is correct identity. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>>>>>>>>>>>> Associate Professor >>>>>>>>>>>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>>>>>>>>>>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://people.du.ac.in/~**singhg45/<http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ********************************************************************** >>>>>>>>>> "Taxonomists getting Extinct and Species Data Deficient !!" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Pankaj Kumar, Ph.D. >>>>>>>>>> Conservation Officer >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Office: >>>>>>>>>> Orchid Conservation Section >>>>>>>>>> Flora Conservation Department >>>>>>>>>> Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation >>>>>>>>>> Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Residence: >>>>>>>>>> 36C, Ng Tung Chai, Lam Tseun >>>>>>>>>> Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> email: [email protected]; [email protected]; >>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>> Phone: +852 2483 7128 (office - 8:30am to 5:00pm); +852 9436 >>>>>>>>>> 6251(mobile). Fax: +852 >>>>>>>>>> 2483 7194 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ********************************************************************** >>>>>>>> "Taxonomists getting Extinct and Species Data Deficient !!" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Pankaj Kumar, Ph.D. >>>>>>>> Conservation Officer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Office: >>>>>>>> Orchid Conservation Section >>>>>>>> Flora Conservation Department >>>>>>>> Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation >>>>>>>> Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Residence: >>>>>>>> 36C, Ng Tung Chai, Lam Tseun >>>>>>>> Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> email: [email protected]; [email protected]; >>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>> Phone: +852 2483 7128 (office - 8:30am to 5:00pm); +852 9436 >>>>>>>> 6251(mobile). Fax: +852 >>>>>>>> 2483 7194 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ********************************************************************** >>>>>>> "Taxonomists getting Extinct and Species Data Deficient !!" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pankaj Kumar, Ph.D. >>>>>>> Conservation Officer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Office: >>>>>>> Orchid Conservation Section >>>>>>> Flora Conservation Department >>>>>>> Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation >>>>>>> Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Residence: >>>>>>> 36C, Ng Tung Chai, Lam Tseun >>>>>>> Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> email: [email protected]; [email protected]; >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> Phone: +852 2483 7128 (office - 8:30am to 5:00pm); +852 9436 >>>>>>> 6251(mobile). Fax: +852 >>>>>>> 2483 7194 >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> ********************************************************************** >>>>> "Taxonomists getting Extinct and Species Data Deficient !!" >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Pankaj Kumar, Ph.D. >>>>> Conservation Officer >>>>> >>>>> Office: >>>>> Orchid Conservation Section >>>>> Flora Conservation Department >>>>> Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation >>>>> Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. >>>>> >>>>> Residence: >>>>> 36C, Ng Tung Chai, Lam Tseun >>>>> Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. >>>>> >>>>> email: [email protected]; [email protected]; >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> Phone: +852 2483 7128 (office - 8:30am to 5:00pm); +852 9436 >>>>> 6251(mobile). Fax: +852 >>>>> 2483 7194 >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> ********************************************************************** >>> "Taxonomists getting Extinct and Species Data Deficient !!" >>> >>> >>> Pankaj Kumar, Ph.D. >>> Conservation Officer >>> >>> Office: >>> Orchid Conservation Section >>> Flora Conservation Department >>> Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation >>> Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. >>> >>> Residence: >>> 36C, Ng Tung Chai, Lam Tseun >>> Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. >>> >>> email: [email protected]; [email protected]; >>> [email protected] >>> Phone: +852 2483 7128 (office - 8:30am to 5:00pm); +852 9436 6251(mobile). >>> Fax: +852 >>> 2483 7194 >>> >> >> > > > -- ********************************************************************** "Taxonomists getting Extinct and Species Data Deficient !!" Pankaj Kumar, Ph.D. Conservation Officer Office: Orchid Conservation Section Flora Conservation Department Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. Residence: 36C, Ng Tung Chai, Lam Tseun Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. email: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] Phone: +852 2483 7128 (office - 8:30am to 5:00pm); +852 9436 6251 (mobile). Fax: +852 2483 7194
