As an Apache nerd, I wholeheartedly support the use of mailing lists for communication. The use of Keybase/Mattermost/etc. as a real-time chat could be interesting. Slack, while popular, is still (and likely will forever remain) a corporate-centric chat product with features (and anti-features) optimized around that setting. For example, Slack offers no way to ignore users or DMs which can lead to harassment (something Slack expects you to handle within your own HR department rather than through technical means), whereas every single email client on this planet allows you to ignore senders or apply filters to things. For that matter, I cannot organize incoming messages in Slack to any degree.
I would also posit that heavy reliance on Slack for an open source project raises the bar to entry for new contributors who might not have enough time to keep up with the deluge of real-time messages that chat rooms typically contain. On Fri, Dec 27, 2019 at 9:00 AM Slide <[email protected]> wrote: > > Fyi, there is a self invite link for the slack setup for CDF. > > https://join.slack.com/t/cdeliveryfdn/shared_invite/enQtODM2NDI1NDc0MzIxLTA1MDcxMzUyMGU2NWVlNmQwN2M1N2M4MWJjOWFkM2UzMDY0OWNkNjAzNzM0NzVkNjQ5M2NkMmY2MTRkMWY4MWY > > > > On Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 06:46 Oleg Nenashev <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> First of all, happy holidays everyone! >> >>> I would love to see the recently nominated board move to standardize, not >>> only our crumbling infrastructure but also the means by which we >>> communicate. >>> With the CDF integration in the works I would also love to hear more about >>> how that looks. More so how this community adapts to that new world (and >>> their use of slack as a communication medium). >>> We had a lot of emails about the integration and board nominations (along >>> with officers), I personally am eager to hear more about the plans and the >>> way to make rubber meet the road from all newly elected officials and >>> returning ones. >>> Happy New Years all and thank you to all the contributors for all the hard >>> work you put in to this project, I for one am immensely thankful. >> >> >> As a recently elected board member, I agree that the communication problem >> becomes more and more important. It is NOT my top priority for the record, >> current Infra and Community Health issues are more important to me. >> >> I am not a fan of Gitter. +100 for "Gitter is nice because everything is >> public and googleable" from Gavin, but it is indeed abandoned. Issues with >> notifications and barely usable mobile clients make it a pretty bad default >> system >> CDF will not be a replacement in short-term. Their Slack is still in >> evaluation, and it is a free account at the moment. Until CDF offers a final >> long-term solution with conversation history retention and easy way to join, >> it is no-go option for a centralized solution >> Self-hosted setup with Jenkins LDAP or GitHub integrations might be a good >> solution for long-term (keybase, rocketchat, Mattermost, whatever), >> especially if we can offer easy sign-up and access to conversations. But it >> is an additional service to setup/maintain, and at the moment the Infra team >> is quite overloaded with other topics >> IRC is same as above. It is unusable without conversation histories, and we >> would need to self-host them. >> >> My preference would be to keep status quo w.r.t this topic for now, and to >> leave it to SIGs/plugin teams to decide. Once CDF has its own solutions, we >> can consider adopting them. With the current trends there might be a GitHub >> Chat at some point ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ >> >> Best regards, >> Oleg >> >> >> On Friday, December 27, 2019 at 1:34:28 PM UTC+1, Tim Jacomb wrote: >>> >>> Personally I’ve never found the invite system in slack very difficult, (not >>> as simple as straight GitHub integration :( ) but you just deploy an app >>> like >>> https://github.com/outsideris/slack-invite-automation/blob/master/README.md, >>> add a badge to your readme and then people self service sign themselves >>> up. (Jenkins UX is a weird one for some reason CDF foundation hasn’t set >>> that up so you need an invite) >>> >>> I’ve seen it work really well elsewhere, k8s has a very large slack >>> community with multiple sigs and user groups. >>> >>> Also I’ve never googled something and had a gitter result come back... >>> >>> Discourse could be useful, as an alternative / supplicant to a mailing list >>> but I don’t think it handles the real time chat aspect. >>> >>> IRC has a higher barrier to entry imo especially for someone who has used >>> slack or gitter. It works well once you get used to it but I don’t think >>> many newer projects are using it. >>> >>> Gitter works most of the time and it’s okay (few annoying issues with it >>> though) >>> >>> I agree that driving this through a SIG would probably be best, with >>> analysis on what the community wants, along with options out there and a >>> recommendation? >>> >>> Or different SIGs / plugins keep choosing their own means and it stays >>> fragmented.... >>> >>> Happy holidays >>> Tim >>> >>> >>> On Fri, 27 Dec 2019 at 11:41, Marky Jackson <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> I said Hugo but meant Discourse >>>> >>>> On Dec 26, 2019, at 6:39 PM, Marky Jackson <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I like using chat bots with Hugo but found it even easier with slack and >>>> kubernetes integration but I think that might be over the top. >>>> I do like this conversation though and think it would be worth a survey of >>>> sort but that is up to the board and sig leads to try and drive adoption. >>>> I think the advocacy team can help drive this and other topics but the >>>> leads of sig’s and the board have the ultimate representation and that was >>>> more the logic for my original email, to help the larger community >>>> discussion take place in the open. >>>> >>>> On Dec 26, 2019, at 6:35 PM, William Hetherington <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Interesting, I run discourse for a personal project but didn’t think about >>>> it for this.... that is definitely another option! >>>> >>>> I wrote a plugin for it to do websockety type comms from a chat box, but I >>>> haven’t looked at it in ages, it is probably not functional atm. >>>> >>>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019 at 18:12 Marky Jackson <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I am a +1 on discourse. Widely used in another oss project and a great >>>>> medium. >>>>> The mailing list is good but lacks the direct ‘fast’ style communications >>>>> a project of this size needs. I still use it but it is not part of muscle >>>>> memory. >>>>> >>>>> On Dec 26, 2019, at 6:10 PM, 'Gavin Mogan' via Jenkins Developers >>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Personally, I'd love to downplay the realtime chat and make the mailing >>>>> lists a bit more useful. Maybe something like discourse (self hosted, or >>>>> https://free.discourse.group/) setup, where we can have threads that are >>>>> easily searchable. Its totally able to be managed by email for those who >>>>> prefer email, and threaded for those that don't. >>>>> >>>>> I can't remember the last time I did a google search and the jenkins >>>>> mailing list came up. >>>>> >>>>> But yea, a longer discussion is probably needed. >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019 at 6:04 PM Marky Jackson <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Replying to both Gavin and William, >>>>>> I think your both points are fair and I completely accept it. I do think >>>>>> gitter is limiting but I am in favor of openness over limiting any day. >>>>>> Thank you both for your insight and this is what the community needs >>>>>> more of. Open discussion and understanding of all view points. >>>>>> Thank you both again and happy holidays >>>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 26, 2019, at 5:53 PM, William Hetherington <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Echo much of what Gavin said. Chat is a tough problem to solve, you >>>>>> don’t reach critical mass if there is a cost, and there are just so many. >>>>>> >>>>>> Keybase.io and a private Jenkins team might be a good option? >>>>>> >>>>>> It’s e2e encrypted, X-platform clients, allows for public entry rooms in >>>>>> what is otherwise a private “team” >>>>>> >>>>>> https://keybase.io/willwh is my user if you want to follow or chat. >>>>>> >>>>>> The other nice thing is keybase is well integrated to github too :) >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> >>>>>> Will >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019 at 17:41 'Gavin Mogan' via Jenkins Developers >>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would be very much against yet another slack i'd have to join. >>>>>>> Especially cause its a closed system, requiring invites to join. Its >>>>>>> certainly why i havn't bothered looking into the jenkins-ux sig. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gitter is nice because everything is public and googleable, you only >>>>>>> need a github account, which is the minimum you'd need to contribute to >>>>>>> any of the jenkins systems anyways. Though gitter is pretty abandoned, >>>>>>> and I would prefer IRC, especially with a public logging bot. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gavin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019 at 5:27 PM Marky Jackson <[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The holidays are upon us and it’s time to relax and look back on the >>>>>>>> year and at the roadmap for the future. >>>>>>>> With [gitter being >>>>>>>> down](https://twitter.com/gitchat/status/1210326466870882306?s=21) I >>>>>>>> think the conversation should be had regarding moving off the archaic >>>>>>>> (gitter/irc) communications used for the community and into a more >>>>>>>> robust form of unified community bonding. >>>>>>>> I would love to see the recently nominated board move to standardize, >>>>>>>> not only our crumbling infrastructure but also the means by which we >>>>>>>> communicate. >>>>>>>> With the CDF integration in the works I would also love to hear more >>>>>>>> about how that looks. More so how this community adapts to that new >>>>>>>> world (and their use of slack as a communication medium). >>>>>>>> We had a lot of emails about the integration and board nominations >>>>>>>> (along with officers), I personally am eager to hear more about the >>>>>>>> plans and the way to make rubber meet the road from all newly elected >>>>>>>> officials and returning ones. >>>>>>>> Happy New Years all and thank you to all the contributors for all the >>>>>>>> hard work you put in to this project, I for one am immensely thankful. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "Jenkins Developers" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jenkinsci-dev/139A5221-5B88-4B8E-A96A-39D399587D0F%40gmail.com. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "Jenkins Developers" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jenkinsci-dev/CAG%3D_DutWqTvR%3DAYwGcHUW10fGNj-OjV4NX06Kcj9%2BZP4PY%2BMFA%40mail.gmail.com. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> William Hetherington >>>>>> w - opschops.ca >>>>>> t - @wmwh >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Jenkins Developers" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jenkinsci-dev/CALJU9pcNf0LsP7k1MSyOK6_7_wzis%3D4UCviKhRQ0jjK%2BXtQCVw%40mail.gmail.com. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Jenkins Developers" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jenkinsci-dev/E8781E68-9F38-42BD-A6FC-6F7EE7EF56BC%40gmail.com. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "Jenkins Developers" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>>> email to [email protected]. >>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jenkinsci-dev/CAG%3D_Dustcus%3DqvEVo4JAyGoEZ-Qt%3DwFjj4nB4TZP4gGen2qbyw%40mail.gmail.com. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "Jenkins Developers" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>>> email to [email protected]. >>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jenkinsci-dev/C6931BD8-9B3E-442E-BBDE-8F8177D74F35%40gmail.com. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> William Hetherington >>>> w - opschops.ca >>>> t - @wmwh >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "Jenkins Developers" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to [email protected]. >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jenkinsci-dev/CALJU9peotX1%2BgmFa7QOcUC6FoAQXjzGBfvtx%3DMh_eHeUi0m3bw%40mail.gmail.com. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "Jenkins Developers" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to [email protected]. >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jenkinsci-dev/C5E3AE90-7829-4544-90F6-105404BD61BF%40gmail.com. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Jenkins Developers" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jenkinsci-dev/0d25a6e9-1321-4671-b524-90d0972b17cf%40googlegroups.com. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Jenkins Developers" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jenkinsci-dev/CAPiUgVfuSVRb16vkQ-FaLeo1bQjww5_AR_dzESGaYM713rEkmw%40mail.gmail.com. -- Matt Sicker Senior Software Engineer, CloudBees -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Jenkins Developers" group. 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