Linux-Advocacy Digest #248, Volume #27 Thu, 22 Jun 00 05:13:04 EDT
Contents:
Re: 10 Linux "features" nobody cares about. (Karri Kalpio)
Re: An Example of the Superiority of Windows vs Linux (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: Linux is awesome!
Re: Linux is awesome!
Re: Linux is awesome!
Re: Linux is awesome!
Re: An Example of the Superiority of Windows vs Linux (Karri Kalpio)
Re: Why Jeff Szarka Has Zero Credibility When He Claims Problems With Linux (Jeff
Szarka)
Re: Stupid idiots that think KDE is a Window Manager (Karri Kalpio)
Re: I've got reiserfs. Drestin, now bash Linux. (Jeff Szarka)
Re: Windows come in, your time is up. (Karri Kalpio)
Re: Why Jeff Szarka Has Zero Credibility When He Claims Problems With Linux (Jeff
Szarka)
Re: Linsux as a desktop platform (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Paul_'Z'_Ewande=A9?=)
Re: Claims of Windows supporting old applications are reflecting reality or
fantasy? (John Wiltshire)
Re: Linux, easy to use? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: You Should Not Treat Linux Like M$ Windows
Re: Linux MUST be in TROUBLE ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Charlie Ebert the LinoShill ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Karri Kalpio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: 10 Linux "features" nobody cares about.
Date: 22 Jun 2000 10:35:22 +0300
Tim Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:19:21 GMT, JEDIDIAH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >On 19 Jun 2000 06:01:22 -0500, Tim Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > You can also make passwords in Unix blank if you like, if you
> > or your family members are unable to remember a simple password.
>
> Thanks for the tip. I woant need it because I'm running Windows 98SE..
> I woant need the
> Blank-Password-HOWTO for it either.
But you really should consider getting a spell-checker. I'm sure there
are several available on your selected platform.
--karri
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------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Subject: Re: An Example of the Superiority of Windows vs Linux
Date: 22 Jun 2000 07:36:28 GMT
On 21 Jun 2000 19:10:30 -0500, Tim Palmer wrote:
>On 19 Jun 2000 10:24:39 -0500, Leslie Mikesell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>It upgraids your DLLs for you instead of printing "dependensy error".
The dependency errors are there for a reason, you ass -- they prevent
you from breaking your old programs. On the other hand, haphazardly
upgrading something regardless of whether you have software that needs
the old version is just not very smart.
If you really did want to forcefully upgrade everything and shoot yourself
in the foot, just like windows, you can do this with RPM. However, RPM is
more intelligent than install shield, and has at the very least the decenecy
to warn you before you shoot yourself in the foot.
--
Donovan
------------------------------
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux is awesome!
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 23:27:37 -0700
Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Gary Hallock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Ha ha....
> >
> > If you only knew...
> >
> > Ever hear of an IBM 2821?
> > IBM 3330?
> > IBM 3340?
> > IBM 3033?
> >
> > Look them up and that will give you a slight clue as to how long I
> > have been in this (the computer) business.
> >
> > You most likely weren't even born yet...
>
> 3033? You are young. Ever here of an IBM 360 Mod 50? That's what I used
> during my first year of college - with wopping 0.5MB of core memory, and
> jobs entered from punched cards. I was involved with the design and
> testing of the generation of mainframes following the 3033 - the 3081.
>
> Gary
>
The IBM 360, yes that brings back memories. Write your source programs on
coding sheets and use a model 26 or 29 keypunch to punch your deck. Submit
your deck to the card reader queue, come back an hour latter to get deck
back. Go back every few hours to see if your job ran yet and if the
printout is ready. Review the printout is see if there were any problems
and update your coding sheets punch the correction take the bad cards out of
you deck and replace them with freshly punched corrections. Resubmit your
deck and repeat until it is flawless. The whole time praying that your deck
won't be dropped by a butter fingered operator.
Yes, memories!
------------------------------
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux is awesome!
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 00:31:15 -0700
Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
That is something that I have suspected as well. However, there is another
possibility that I have discovered does apply to other anti Linux
Winvocates. It may apply to this situation as well.
There are people who fell so threatened in their financies by the advent of
a free, stable, and popular unix operating system, that they have to do
whatever they can to destory or at least hinder the general acceptance of
this operating system.
Some of the reasons they feel threatened may include fear that the money
they spent for Microsoft Certification may end up havig been wasted if a
non-Microsoft operating system becomes dominant. There are also many morons
who have been certified with out any real talent or knoledge of computers
other than what they had to know to pass the certification testing. They
have no real understanding of computers and no ability to adapt to a new
operating system, should their employers switch away from Microsoft
products.
There are also those who are heavily invested into Microsoft, say support
people who are so entrenched that they can not or will not be able to handle
a unix becoming more popular what they are already tooled up for. Then
there is the person who caused his employer to invest large amounts of funds
to aquire various Windows software and all the licenses they need for their
company, who is afraid of being called in to answer for their recommendation
when a better and cheaper system was available.
Consider facing this from your boss.
Six months ago you had up spend seven figures to get all the software were
need for our offices nationwide. You didn't say that we would have to keep
repaying those fees for the licenses whenever we change employees. Current
projections show that in five years our total software lincensing costs will
be eight figures close to nine. Now I find out that there is another OS
that will run on our hardware, can perform very well without have to have
the latest most expensive computers, and that would have had a total
software purchase price OF JUST TWO HUNDRED DOLLARS! WHAT THE HELL WERE YOU
THINKING OF! WHAT KIND OF IDIOT ARE YOU!
They may fear that the last sentence of the conversation would be: YOU ARE
FIRED MISTER!
I know of several people who won't hire anyone on thier staff who have ever
worked with any operating systems other than those by Microsoft. One has
told me that if he discovered that even his most valuable employee had ever
had anything at all to do with Linux, ever, that employee would fire on the
spot.
That is the level of fear that could be driving some individuals to keep
posting anti-Linux messages. If this were FreeBSD that had become as
popular as Linux is becoming then that would be their target.
What most of them seem to forget is that we at least most of us, don't care
about the popularity of Linux. It does the job we want, we like it and we
are happy with it. All that most of us may hope is that if it does become
popular enough to become predominate that is won't be changed into something
that would cancel out the benefits the we now see in Linux. If that does
happen, then let it, we will stick to the version of Linux we liked and the
development of the system may divide. The same way the Linux was developed
out of Minix, if Linux no longer services our needs then it would be likly
that a new OS would be developed out of Linux that *would* serve our needs.
My view of the anti-Linux posters are a bunch of morons and bullies, and
somewhat shady at that. I am not referring to those who tried Linux and may
honestly found it to not be of their preference, or someone who had a real
problem. I am referring to those who seem to have a need to try and make us
conform to what they see as proper computer usage.
Secretly Cruel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> >Sometimes the truth hurts Nathaniel.
> >
> >Linux in terms of market share is less than a hangnail on Microsoft or
> >Apples foot.
> >
> >Things may change in time, I have no crystal ball, but for now
> >learn to deal with it. You'll feel a whole lot better about
>
> I've been reading your posts with interest. Is someone paying you to
> post your anti-Linux messages to Usenet?
> --+==]Secretly Cruel[==+--
>
> (Antispam measure is obvious in email address)
------------------------------
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux is awesome!
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 23:29:19 -0700
Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Looks like junior got into his grand father's POP manual.
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> But I wasn't addressing you, your credentials speak for themself :)
>
> As a matter of fact the farthest I go back is the 168 (370).
>
> The 3081 was a pretty solid machine except for power and the cylic
> monitor getting screwed up now and then.
>
> The 3084 (2 3081's put together in either si mode or pp mode) was
> another story. A disaster to say the least. The PGIO bus was 8 bytes
> wide as well as the diagnostic channel( SVC, or service channel) that
> provided input to the service terminal making diagnostics and pulling
> of AQE error log's painfully slow.
>
> BTW what was a default PRAI code, meaning the service processor
> microcode was operating correctly?
>
> I'll fill in the first 2 digits for you 17_ _
>
> ...
>
> simon
>
>
>
> On Tue, 20 Jun 2000 19:16:35 -0400, Gary Hallock
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> >> Ha ha....
> >>
> >> If you only knew...
> >>
> >> Ever hear of an IBM 2821?
> >> IBM 3330?
> >> IBM 3340?
> >> IBM 3033?
> >>
> >> Look them up and that will give you a slight clue as to how long I
> >> have been in this (the computer) business.
> >>
> >> You most likely weren't even born yet...
> >
> >3033? You are young. Ever here of an IBM 360 Mod 50? That's what I
used
> >during my first year of college - with wopping 0.5MB of core memory, and
> >jobs entered from punched cards. I was involved with the design and
> >testing of the generation of mainframes following the 3033 - the 3081.
> >
> >Gary
>
------------------------------
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux is awesome!
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 23:12:24 -0700
Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Welcome, young grasshopper, Welcome.
Secretly Cruel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> >Linux sucks Mark and you know it. The only reason you support it is
> >because it fits into the cult like left wing, screw the establishment
> >ala "Pacifica Radio" which you seem to believe in and support.
> >
> >You are entitled to your opinion as I am, but if you look at Linux vs
> >just about any OS out there you will see that it is a work in prgress
> >and in need of a lot of help. If you are willing to settle for second
> >rate hardware support and second rate applications than Linux may be
> >just the ticket to your left wing dreams.
>
> As a new Linux user, I agree that Linux is still a little less than
> intuitive for those of us moving over from Windows systems.
>
> Concerning hardware, it has some catching up to do, sure. But things are
> getting better very quickly.
>
> Second rate apps? Maybe as far as browsing the web, because Netscape
> (for me anyhow) is a POS. But the Opera browser is going to be an
> awesome app once it's finished. Word processing? Wordperfect is good
> enough for me. Email? There are many clients that do all I need -
> multiple POP, filtering, etc. Graphics? The Gimp handles my needs.
>
> I am an average home PC user. I have used Windows for many years. After
> using Linux for 6 months, I have no intention of ever going back. :-)
>
> --+==]Secretly Cruel[==+--
>
> (Antispam measure is obvious in email address)
------------------------------
From: Karri Kalpio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: An Example of the Superiority of Windows vs Linux
Date: 22 Jun 2000 10:41:35 +0300
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Pete Goodwin) writes:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (John W. Stevens) wrote in <3950F488.A4FCF052
> >Unfortunately, most "advocacy tests" are not valid, as proper lab
...
> I tried to make them similar - I'm using a dual boot system - how similar
> can you get. The only difference is that Linux is running on a bigger,
> faster disk.
i.e. different
--karri
--
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------------------------------
From: Jeff Szarka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why Jeff Szarka Has Zero Credibility When He Claims Problems With Linux
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 04:07:07 -0400
On 22 Jun 2000 01:51:35 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mark S. Bilk) wrote:
>>On the flip side Mandrake 7.1 locks up for me on a system with a 5
>>year old video card while trying to probe for SCSI cards.
>
>Last year, Szarka purposely rigged a Linux installation to
>fail, and then used it as the basis for a fraudulent anti-
>Linux propaganda operation. I wrote three articles about
>it, based in part on the work of a number of other people
>who also analyzed his little project. These are reproduced
>below:
You've proved that two distributions of Linux simply don't work. Are
you sure you're a Linux advocate? Isn't Mandrake 7.1 a popular enough
release? I tried to install it on a system with 1 NIC and 1 video
card. That's it. It crashed and burned on the SCSI probe. It doesn't
get much more stock than this system... BX board, Celeron, 64MB, 1
generic ne2000 NIC. That's it. Linux couldn't do it.
What distro must I try next? Should we believe the average consumer is
going to buy 5 distributions to find one that actually installs? I
tried just about every different way to install Linux as successfully
as Windows and it has yet to happen.
It's funny that you attack PhatLinux, it worked the best out of all
the distributions I've tried. At least I didn't have to re-partition
with it.
So in summary, these are the distributions I've tried:
Slackware 3 (or so) - Installed after many hours of tweaking and
getting drivers. No sound, no modem, no printer, etc.
Redhat 5.x - Installed but never detected my sound. It also didn't
correctly detect my monitor so I spent my time with it looking at half
a screen.
SuSE 5.3 - This one actually worked for the most part. I ignored
trying to setup my sound card and NIC though so I'm not sure how well
it would have really worked. At least my video & modem worked. All
this after many hours of setup.
Phat Linux - Worked quite well until I tried to setup video drivers.
Mandrake 7.x - Died probing for SCSI.
None of the installs worked correctly. NONE. This is all on fairly
popular hardware... Sb Live, TNT, ISA hardware modem, HP Laser 3, etc.
Very basic stuff.
You can pretend this didn't happen... I'm sure that will be easier for
you. You can search news groups and find tons of other people having
the same exact problems I did. How many posts are there during a month
in Linux help groups about people trying to setup a modem? Yea...
LOTS.
------------------------------
From: Karri Kalpio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Stupid idiots that think KDE is a Window Manager
Date: 22 Jun 2000 11:09:37 +0300
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> In article <8ipf1g$1nok$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[deletia]
> Although its an easy flame for you, I think that for lusers
> like me, its an easy mistake to make. In all the time that
> I've used Redhat, I thought KDE was a window manager, and am
> only just learning that it isn't. Now, if this does equate
> to having a knowledge level of 0, then yes, clearly linux loses
> points here, most windows users can get to work immediately,
> ie., attain a "knowledge amount" significantly greater than 0,
> even if unable to separate the idea of a user interface from the
> operating system, if only because in the microsoft world, there
> isn't that much separation between the interface and the OS.
But on the other hand, doesn't that just prove the easiness of Linux?
All that time, you didn't even know that KDE isn't a window manager
but still could use it with zero knowledge?
--karri
PS. ;-)
--
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------------------------------
From: Jeff Szarka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: I've got reiserfs. Drestin, now bash Linux.
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 04:10:28 -0400
On 22 Jun 2000 14:15:56 +0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Terry
Porter) wrote:
>>On the flip side Mandrake 7.1 locks up for me on a system with a 5
>>year old video card while trying to probe for SCSI cards.
>>
>>
>If only Szarka had any credibility, we would listen. As it is hes just a long
>term Wintroll.
I wish I had a digital video camera... I could film the lock up. It's
funny really. I've always thought when it locked up it should dump
quotes from zealots about how stable Linux is and how installs always
work perfectly the first time around.
------------------------------
From: Karri Kalpio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Windows come in, your time is up.
Date: 22 Jun 2000 11:16:11 +0300
"James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> RIP W2k.
>
> James
>
> "2:1" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > I just downloaded the latest version of Wine. it's pretty impressive.
> > Soon, one of the main advantages of windows --- the applications
> > avaliable (although I'm happy with the linux ones), will cease to be an
> > advantages.
>
> From your enthusiasm I assume I will be able to run all those great Win apps
> within weeks.
Probably yes... Both of them...
--karri
--
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------------------------------
From: Jeff Szarka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why Jeff Szarka Has Zero Credibility When He Claims Problems With Linux
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 04:30:23 -0400
On 22 Jun 2000 01:51:35 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mark S. Bilk) wrote:
>>On the flip side Mandrake 7.1 locks up for me on a system with a 5
>>year old video card while trying to probe for SCSI cards.
>
>Last year, Szarka purposely rigged a Linux installation to
>fail, and then used it as the basis for a fraudulent anti-
>Linux propaganda operation. I wrote three articles about
>it, based in part on the work of a number of other people
>who also analyzed his little project. These are reproduced
>below:
To follow up....
Just out of curiosity I checked alt.os.linux.mandrake to see if others
had this problem:
"hangup on install, scsi problem?"
i am having a real problem installing mandrake. i have used other
distro's before (i own 8 of them) and want to try it, but on the
install procedure i get a hang when it reaches the scsi setup, any
suggestions helpful, TIA
MoUsE
Next message from Sean Kennedy:
I too am having the same problem with Mandrake 7.0. I have a Symbios
UW SCSI
card (build into my Intel Nightshade motherboard) and get the
following
error on booting from the CD:
<snip>
>From MoUse again:
but the real kick in the ass is, i dont have any scsi installed
Sounds familiar huh? The only fix appears to be using expert mode. It
seems to install Mandrake 7 you must be a Linux expert. How exactly is
this user friendly again? This has NOTHING to do with hardware
drivers. This is a BUG.
I think I deserve an appology or would you like this guys e-mail
address so you can flame him too? Let me know either way.
Linux, who do you want to flame today?
------------------------------
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Paul_'Z'_Ewande=A9?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linsux as a desktop platform
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 10:35:32 +0200
"John W. Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> a �crit dans le message news:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<SNIP> Some stuff </SNIP>
> > Reading comprehension problems ? I said :"End users have no need "to
futz
> > around trying to learn the clunkyOS", there are trained/experienced
people
> > for that."
>
> And you are, in fact, wrong. Users need to learn to use the OS,
> regardless of what that OS is.
Okay, I concede, what fired me up was the "spend thousand of hours part
trying to learn the OS." as if the Macintosh was fundamentally different and
superior to Windows on that regard.
A properly pre-configured Windows, Linux/*BSD with a GNOME/KDE or MacOS
operate undr the same basics. It's when you try to do things less mundane
than opening files/apps/shutting down the computer that things may get more
hairy on one platform than another, IMO.
<SNIP> The rest </SNIP>
> John Stevens
Paul 'Z' Ewande
------------------------------
From: John Wiltshire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claims of Windows supporting old applications are reflecting reality or
fantasy?
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:41:07 GMT
On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 23:10:32 -0400, "Colin R. Day"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>John Wiltshire wrote:
>
>> My first question would be what legally constitutes a machine when it
>> is made from commodity parts? Reminds me of my brother's car which
>> has a new chassis, engine, transmission and wheels. The only thing
>> the same is the license plate.
>
>Ask Microsoft. From my EULA:
>
>Single COMPUTER: The SOFTWARE PRODUCT is licensed with the
>COMPUTER as a single integrated product. The SOFTWARE PRODUCT
>may only be used with the COMPUTER.
That's sufficiently vague to mean about anything. Guess it depends on
who has the best lawyers. :-)
John Wiltshire
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Linux, easy to use?
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:30:26 GMT
In article <8irg6h$4ng$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (abraxas) wrote:
> You are whining about KDE, not about linux. The fact that you do not
know
> the difference between the tough betrays your lack of credibility in
the
> first place.
>
"The tough"? Perhaps you meant the "two". As for Linux/KDE, I'll lump
them together I think. My points still stand, your comments are merely
noise.
Pete
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ()
Subject: Re: You Should Not Treat Linux Like M$ Windows
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:48:55 GMT
On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 06:47:04 GMT, Bracy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Charlie root
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Most Windows troubleshooting sessions go like this.
>
>Actually, most Windows troubleshooting goes like this:
>
>Call Tech Support.
...and get blown off by a drone who is as clueless as you are.
>
>
>And that's pretty much it.
--
If you know what you want done, it is quite often more useful to
tell the machine what you want it to do rather than merely having
the machine tell you what you are allowed to do.
|||
/ | \
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Linux MUST be in TROUBLE
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:36:09 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Ciaran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >Why? What relevance does a task scheduler have to an
> application writer?
>
> Its extremely relavent. Understanding the scheduler and and how
> it affects your process running at different priorities in (for
> example) multithread and SMP environments is something that
> should always be understood to some degree by the coder.
>
Actually it's extremely irrelevant. Why should how the scheduler works
affect how I write applications. In most OS's the scheduler works
transparently without my knowledge.
Of course, if you're talking about writing high speed applications then
yes it may be relevant, but most of what I write doesn't come into that
category.
Pete
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Charlie Ebert the LinoShill
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:46:28 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Charlie Ebert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> He's just a Microsoft Stock Holder. Just a Microsoft Stock Holder!
> That's all. Nothing to worry about.
Ah that's your stock answer is it? Accuse anyone who challenges you to
produce facts and figures (when your posts are incredibly devoid of such
things) you accuse them of being Microsoft Stock Holders!
Wow, talk about a smoke screen.
C'mon Charlie, put up or shut up. Give us a magazine name! Give us a
link!
Pete
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
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