Linux-Misc Digest #738, Volume #21 Thu, 9 Sep 99 08:13:10 EDT
Contents:
Re: Amiga, QNX, Linux and Revolution (Guy Macon)
Re: Is there a program that returns (guesses) the keyboard type? (Bob Tennent)
Re: how to find font used by an xterm? (Bob Tennent)
Re: Permissions Problem (Jon Skeet)
Re: Is there a program that returns (guesses) the keyboard type? (Bob Tennent)
Re: Installing GNUCash (Terry Porter)
Re: A REAL Linux for free (Gerwin Bijsterbosch)
Re: A REAL Linux for free (Gerwin Bijsterbosch)
Re: please help b4 my head bursts ("Jeffrey S. Kline")
Re: Kernel xconfig errors (Gergo Barany)
Re: kppp connects and immediately disconnects with pppd died (David Mitchell)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Guy Macon)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.qnx,comp.sys.amiga.misc
Subject: Re: Amiga, QNX, Linux and Revolution
Date: 09 Sep 1999 03:00:23 PDT
In article <7r7iqf$cji$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Joe Cosby) wrote:
>
>** To reply in e-mail, remove "howsyz." from address **
>
>Guy Macon hunched over his computer, typing feverishly;
>thunder crashed, Guy Macon laughed madly, then wrote:
(speaking of human interface in general and cars in particular)
>> There is a a one to one relation between the interface and the
>> functions that the user needs to do (stop, go, steer), but there
>> is not a one to one relation between the interface and the internal
>> implementation details. Manual shifting is a good example of a one
>> to one relation between the interface and the internal implementation
>> details, and manual shifting makes it harder to learn how to drive.
>> An ideal car would be an automatic that a power user could switch
>> into manual shifting mode. An ideal car would also not give you
>> two seperate ways to shed speed with different interfaces (brakes
>> and engine braking). An ideal car would have the brake pedal control
>> the brakes and the compression braking (with a power user mode that
>> gives full control).
>>
>
>Here, I agree with you 100%. When I design an interface, I ask myself first, what is
>the
>user going to be trying to do when he accesses this interface? Second, what is the
>ideal absolute logical -minimum- input I am going to need from him to accomplish that?
>
>So for instance, we're manufacturing parts to fill a large order. The production
>supervisor might want to use the computer to find out how many parts have been made
>against the current order, so he knows how many more need to be made. So as I see
>it, that can be reduced to two interactions;
>
>1. I want to check production vs. need
>2. Select part to check
>
>So if I end up with more than two interactions, as I see it I've failed.
>
>That is not only how I design interfaces for others; frequently that's how I design
>them
>for myself.
I agree fully. And of course we both agree that there are other classes
of user besides that production supervisor who require different interfaces.
Two instantly come to mind; the service technician who has to go out and
figure out why your software stopped working after the serial cable got
cut by a forklift needs good error messages and maybe activity logs, and
the software developer (you) who needs to debug or enhance the software
needs a whole different human interface. And of course, as long as all
goes well, the production supervisor should not see details such as baud
rates or pointers.
>I'm not saying that people should be required to understand all the inner workings of
>a
>computer in order to operate one.
>
>I am saying that there are basic concepts in how computers work which are universal
>across platforms.
I agree. Just as a car user doesn't need to know about spark advance,
a car user *needs* to know about steering. (Even this can be made into
knowledge that the user doesn't need, but that changes the car into a
locomotive...) You hit a key concept there: "universal across platforms."
The idea of asking the supervisor which part he wants to check is universal.
Whether that question comes as a dialog box, a pulldown menu item, a voice
interaction, a touch screen, or a wand that reads the barcode on a sample
part is not universal. You don't need the wand and you don't need the
screen/keyboard, but you do need some way for the supervisor to tell the
computer what part to check. That is indeed "universal across platforms"
in a way that filenames or directories are not.
>We are requiring people to interact with these machines, but we are not teaching them
>the basic concepts necessary to interact with them effectively. A hundred, maybe two
>hundred years ago most people learned little or no mathematics. They didn't need to.
>Now, it would be difficult to survive without at least enough math to manage a bank
>account, decide whether a purchase was practical, etc.
>
>Forty-fifty years ago, most people didn't drive autos, so driver's ed wasn't taught in
>school. Now most people drive, so it is.
>
>Ten-fifteen years ago, you didn't need to be computer literate to be employable, so
>basic computer literacy wasn't taught. And it still isn't.
>
>You're talking about changing what it means to be computer-literate. I'm talking
>about
>teaching basic, inevitable concepts of computer use.
>
>Maybe, as you say, hierarchical file structures should be abandoned in the interface
>in
>favor of something 'less technical'. Less of an outgrowth of the computer's internal
>structure.
>
>And, OK, maybe so. But first: what I'm saying is, right now, this is how computers
>work
>and -until- that changes, I think people who are going to depend on these machines
>should be taught core concepts for their own sake, just as they are taught core
>concepts
>of math and driving.
I sure agree with this. I am coming from the direction of how we, as
engineers and software developers should design our end. Of course users
should learn "computer literacy". Model T owners should learn spark
advance. No disagreement here.
>Second, is it really realistic to say that hierarchical directory structure is a bad
>idea, or
>an idea to be 'gotten beyond'? Computers process large amounts of data very quickly.
>File cabinets can be replaced by desktop computers. Storage warehouses can be
>replaced by LAN servers. A general computer operator is either going to be handling
>large amounts of data, or is not going to be getting as much usefulness out of the
>computer as she can.
>
>So I think a hierarchical structure, or something analogous, is just a good logical
>choice
>for keeping 'papers' sorted.
>
>Is it really such a difficult concept? People learned to use filing cabinets and
>desks for a
>hundred years with no problem. The concepts aren't really all that different, so
>long as
>you work at it from 'the ground up'.
>
>Cooper provides a wonderful example. 'Jane' loses all her files because someone
>changes her default directory in Word.
>
>What I'm saying is, if Jane had been taught a basic core concept like directory
>structure
>she wouldn't have batted an eye.
Again, the concept that jane should learn the details of her present
dancing-bearware is something we both agree on. The question of
designing operating systems (and thus deciding which set of details
she has to learn) is another question. Linux, QNX, and Amiga make
different decisions in these areas. Can a new Amiga do better?
>And from the interface design level, what could be done differently, so that Jane
>wouldn't 'have to worry about' structure? MS provide two good solutions. She might
>have clicked the 'File' menu, and checked her last four files from within Word. She
>might have clicked 'Start'->'Documents' from the patented Windows Upside-Down Menu
>(tm) and found her last doc that way.
>
>But I think the problem with these two solutions is immediately obvious. They -add-
>to
>the amount of knowledge necessary for Jane to handle her computer.
>
>So the next step seems to be to say "well, they should be her -primary- interface".
Maybe so, but these interfaces also have things they do poorly (like finding
last year's christmas card list). Other methods that come to mind are having
a search engine interface or making HTML style hyperlinks really easy for
Jane to create, so that she makes a link rather than saving a file, and clicks
the link rather than retrieving the file. MS also provides a *much* better
solution to the particular case Cooper relates; the person who changed the
default directory should have had his own desktop settings. If Jane was
using NT, she must have given him her password, otherwise any default
directory changes would apply only to him without changing her settings.
Your point still stands, though, because Jane can change her default
directory by accident. She *needs* to understand about directories and
defaults - until OS designers make systems where she doesn't. Even then,
she will have to learn what is "universal across platforms".
>But as I see it, teaching hierarchical directory structure -once- in high school,
>where this
>is applicable across a wide variety of needs, just makes more sense.
Yes! I couldn't agree more. Lots of things (scientific method, math,
critical thinking) should be taught to as many as possible. Then we
engineers should design systems so that, wherever possible, such knowledge
is not needed. The person who stores the list of parts that go into
assembling an airplane will need to know hierarchical structures. The
office worker who does the same thing again and again should probably be
presented with a flat structure of some kind.
>And this also leads into my next point;
>
>Third: If we get away from interfaces which are based on a 'best representation' of
>the
>system's internal structure, then I think we end up with a lack of uniformity across
>applications, which is even worse for the user.
Here is where I disagree strongly. You have identified a real need,
but in my opinion associated the wrong solution with it. The right
solution is human interface standards.
Lack of uniformity is a problem, but it's not caused by hiding the
system's internal structure. Look at HTML; Hyperlinks are not
representitive of the underlying structure that is in the computer,
and many webpgaes are designed my clueless newbies. Has this led
to a problem of lack of uniformity across web pages? No. I can
figure out what most webpages do witout thinking about the
underlying structure.
>> >Even something as basic as 'how is data stored' can go a very long
>> >way towards making a computer operator, however dullwitted, a much
>> >better operator. When I first ran a Wintel, I had been using an
>> >Amiga for years. It took me no time to find programs, run them,
>> >store files, retrieve files, etc. These things take some people
>> >months, and many people never really understand it. The basics
>> >are universal (plus or minus a GUI).
The fact that data is stored is indeed universal. How is implementation
dependent. Imagine a world where NOVRAM (Non-Volatile RAM) had turned
out to be much cheaper than rotating mechanical storage devices. In this
world, RAM would not be erased when the computer is turned off. We wouldn't
buy a 12GB hard disk when we filled or 1GB disk; wewould instead expand
our 1GB of RAM with another 11GB. "Storage" and "Memory" would not be
different concepts with different rules (files/directories vs. adresses,
volatile vs. non-volatile, fast vs, slow). "store files, retrieve files"
in not universal, but "store information, retrieve information" is. We
usually store documents by name, and we usually store them as one file
per document instead of one file per page, paragraph, or creation date.
Except when we don't. MS Outlook stores email (ASCII text files with
well defined headers) all in one huge file, and presents them as a list
that can be sorted by date recieved, sender, etc.
>> Why should you have to find programs? Why should you be aware of
>> the existance of a hard disk?
>
>I know a large number of people who have filled up their hard disk,
>and not understood why performance dogged (as Windoze juggled page files).
>
>To me it's like saying "why do you need a gas gauge? This car has
>a -really big- gas tank.
I don't think you got my point. Sorry for being unclear. I like the idea
that the user knows that they have a certain amount of storage space
(gas tank/hard disk) and a certain amount of stuff (gas/data) that goes
there. I don't think that the user has to know whether the storage
available-storage used gauge refers to a gas tank or a storage battery,
a hard disk or RAM or a PPP connection to an array of tape drives.
It *is* important to understand what causes the gas tank to empty
(don't be such a leadfoot) or the disk to fill (stop downloading
so many JPEGs). Speed and reliability of the storage are important
to know as well, (refilling a gas tank is quick. Refilling the
battery on an electric car isn't) *unless* we engineers can make it
so that you don't need to know.
>> You REALLY need to read THE INMATES ARE RUNNING THE ASYLUM. It's
>> amazon.com's best selling software development book. It even describes
>> what an apologist is, which fits you (and me, before I read the book!)
>> very well. Look into it. There is a better way to do things.
>>
>Despite all this which is disagreeing as far as the need for basic
>computer education, I don't want to seem like I'm flaming or
>something.
>
>Really, I've found this whole thread very interesting and the
>ideas you and Cooper are talking about very important and
>insightful.
My hope is that I can influence those who are working on the New
Amiga to do things better than the way we do things now.
With Linux, it's a slam dunk: "The inmates are running the asylum"
is hugely popular, so it's just a matter of time before we see
Linux human interfaces that reflect what's in the book. This is
only possible because Linux allows me to choose human interfaces
instead of forcing one on me and then forcing another changed
one on me next year, like Microsoft does.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Tennent)
Subject: Re: Is there a program that returns (guesses) the keyboard type?
Date: 9 Sep 1999 10:39:21 GMT
Reply-To: rdt(a)cs.queensu.ca
On 09 Sep 1999 11:47:30 +0200, Klaus Zeitler wrote:
>
>I'm wondering if there's a program that I can use in my .xinitrc that
>makes an (educated) guess of the keyboard type, so that I can
>use the appropriate xmodmap automatically.
>
Not likely; here's an excerpt from the man page for xkeycaps:
-keyboard keyboard-name or -kbd keyboard-name
Specifies the type of keyboard to display. There are many dif-
ferent computer keyboards in the world, and xkeycaps must know
which one you are using in order to function correctly. Case
does not matter when specifying a keyboard name.
If you're running on the console display of a Sun or HP, then
xkeycaps will interrogate the attached keyboard hardware directly
to determine what keyboard you're using. But if you're running
remotely, or on another type of machine, then you must specify a
keyboard somehow.
Bob T.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Tennent)
Subject: Re: how to find font used by an xterm?
Date: 9 Sep 1999 09:59:03 GMT
Reply-To: rdt(a)cs.queensu.ca
On 9 Sep 1999 00:21:43 -0700, brian@com wrote:
>
>I tried xwininfo and xprop, and neither want to tell me the font used
>by the current xterm. I looked at .Xdefaults, and xterm*font is commented
>out. I did xrdb -q, and do not see anything.
>
According to man xterm, the default is "fixed". This is an alias for
a full font description, such as
-misc-fixed-medium-r-semicondensed--13-120-75-75-c-60-iso8859-1
also known as 6x13. This is typically defined in
/usr/lib/X11/fonts/misc/fonts.alias.
Bob T.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jon Skeet)
Subject: Re: Permissions Problem
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 10:04:22 +0100
[Posted and emailed]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I have a linux server colocated at an ISP and they set it up without using
> groups. Every user belongs to their own group.
>
> I've run in to a problem in that I need to have permissions on
> files/directories set to writable for some CGI's, but I can't figure out
> how to not let any user on the system write to them. So what I'm trying to
> figure out is how to make directories viewable by nobody but not viewable by
> any users/groups on the system. Since everyone is part of their own group,
> they call on the same permissions as nobody. So if I make a directory on
> the server rwx---rwx so that nobody can write to it, then any other user
> on the server can write to it just as well. Is there a way to fix this?
It's a better idea to make the CGI scripts run under the userid of the
owner. I believe it's possible to make apache do this automatically, or
you could do it just for the CGI scripts involved by making the scripts
setuid owner.
--
Jon Skeet - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet/
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Tennent)
Subject: Re: Is there a program that returns (guesses) the keyboard type?
Date: 9 Sep 1999 10:54:48 GMT
On 09 Sep 1999 11:47:30 +0200, Klaus Zeitler wrote:
>
>I'm wondering if there's a program that I can use in my .xinitrc that
>makes an (educated) guess of the keyboard type, so that I can
>use the appropriate xmodmap automatically.
>
On the other hand, if I actually *run* xkeycaps on my RedHat system,
it correctly guesses my keyboard type, using, it says, the vendor
identification string for the display.
Bob T.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Terry Porter)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: Installing GNUCash
Reply-To: No-Spam
Date: 9 Sep 1999 19:21:45 +0800
On 8 Sep 1999 06:57:16 GMT, Mohd H Misnan
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>I've succesfully running gnucash 1.2.3 on my Linux, you need few things
>including the nana, swig, xmhtml, and lesstif 0.88.1. I've gotten the lesstif
>from the main site where I downloaded gnucash.
>
>The following sites are listed in the .lsm file:
>
>Primary-site: http://gnucash.org/
>Alternate-site: http://linas.org/linux/xacc
> 1070KB gnucash-1.2.pre0.tar.gz
>Alternate-site: sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/apps/financial/accounting/
> 885KB gnucash-1.1.22.tar.gz
>Alternate-site: ftp.x.org /contrib/applications
>
How is the release, is it stable enuf to trust ?
Anything extra of worth over the current stable xacc ?
And my BIG question...... can this one PRINT ????
I loved xacc, but its lack of print facility, made it unusable for me. The
fact the data is kept in a binary format, made printing imposible too.
>
>
>--
>|Mohd Hamid Misnan | [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] |
>|iMac/233RevB/MacOS 8.6 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] |
>|AMDK6-2/300/Linux2.2.12 | http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/3319/ |
>-Floppy disk: Serious curvature of the spine.
--
Kind Regards
Terry
--
**** To reach me, use [EMAIL PROTECTED] ****
My Desktop is powered by GNU-LINUX, and has been
up 1 week 4 days 1 hour 36 minutes
** Registration Number: 103931, http://counter.li.org **
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Gerwin Bijsterbosch)
Subject: Re: A REAL Linux for free
Date: 9 Sep 1999 11:35:23 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Assad Khan wrote:
>1). Get a life, lewser
>2). Get the hell out of a Linux newsgroup and join a alt.kids.freaks
>3). Solaris does NOT run the majority of Web servers, and isn't free
>4). Solaris sucks, Linux ownz
>5). SOLARIS'S FREE IS NOT THE SAME AS LINUX'S FREE AND SOLARIS IS ONLY FOR
>NON-COMMERCIAL USE! SO GET A LIFE BITCH!
I'm on a Solaris 5.7 box right now, and it's WAY worse/slower than my
Linux-box at home. Why am I on this box anyway? Ever heard of T1 :-) Heck,
Solaris just reminds me of Windows!!
Gerwin
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Gerwin Bijsterbosch)
Subject: Re: A REAL Linux for free
Date: 9 Sep 1999 11:38:04 GMT
>as a solaris admin, I am insulted that your subject line refers to solaris as
>"A REAL Linux".
Yes, it is insulting to Linux. Solaris really sucks. I'm here on a
Solaris-box telnetting into a BSD/OS box (this Solaris box doesn't have
slrn on it). It's really a pain in the butt, compared to Linux, which is
much faster and much more stable. I'm constantly getting the feeling that
Solaris is locking up on me (I know it isn't, but it'll pause for a while
every once in a while).
Gerwin
------------------------------
From: "Jeffrey S. Kline" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: linux.redhat.misc
Subject: Re: please help b4 my head bursts
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 06:00:20 -0500
Sounds like when it was mounted, the system detected a fault in the file
system and mounted it readonly. I've had that happen. You can run a fsck (if
it's an ext2 disk) on it and see if all is ok.
Jeff
kev wrote in message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
>Hi,
>
>Linux thinks there is nothing on the floppy disk in my floppy drive,
>when in actual fact there are some very important files on it which I
>need, like, now, if not sooner.
>
>I realise this is some sort of cacheing problem. I've tried to 'touch' a
>new file on there in the hope that this would force it to re-read the
>disk, but instead I just got "touch: /mnt/floppy/tmp: Read-only file
>system". According to the options for this drive (and yes, it is
>mounted) it is _not_ read-only.
>
>What is going on? How do I read the disk? Why is it so unnecessarily
>un-intuitive ?
>
>TIA,
>
>Kev
>
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Gergo Barany)
Crossposted-To: linux.redhat.misc,alt.os.linux.redhat
Subject: Re: Kernel xconfig errors
Date: 9 Sep 1999 11:53:35 GMT
Bill Sorenson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Now that I am just about finished ripping the last of my hair from my
>head, it seem like a good idea to ask someone what I am doing wrong.
<snip>
>make[1]: gcc: Command not found
Install the gcc package.
Gergo
--
Kath: Can he be present at the birth of his child?
Ed: It's all any reasonable child can expect if the dad is present
at the conception.
-- Joe Orton, "Entertaining Mr. Sloane"
GU d- s:+ a--- C++>$ UL+++ P>++ L+++ E>++ W+ N++ o? K- w--- !O !M !V
PS+ PE+ Y+ PGP+ t* 5+ X- R>+ tv++ b+>+++ DI+ D+ G>++ e* h! !r !y+
------------------------------
From: David Mitchell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.os.linux,comp.os.linux.setup,comp.windows.x.kde
Subject: Re: kppp connects and immediately disconnects with pppd died
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 10:48:16 +0100
In article <7r5t7r$hnh$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Wade <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> Can anyone help, before I lost the rest of my hair?
>
>Everytime I have seen this problem, it has been an authentication
>problem with the remote (host) system.
>
>Verify the authentication type and setup kppp appropriately. If it is
>PAP, you will need to make sure the pap-secrets file is built
>correctly. If it is CHAP, make sure the chap-secrets file is built
>correctly. If its neither you will need to use a script. The best way
>to figure this out is to use what someone else already mentioned -
>minicom.
>
>If its MSCHAP80, you can do that to, but may need some mods to your
>pppd. Search for MSCHAP in alt.os.linux.caldera. I posted a long
>detailed article about getting this to work several months ago.
>
>If none of the above help, the article I posted (as described above)
>also tells you how to debug the ppp session to find out exactly what is
>failing.
>
Have a look in the kppp help files.
Sorry to be so vague; but the description of this problem is exactly the
same as one described there.
I'd look it up for you; but I'm using Windoze (gasp !).
Next time I boot up linux for my weekly drool I'll look it up for you.
--
==========================================================================
David Mitchell ===== A life spent making mistakes is not only
================================ more honourable but more useful than a
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ===== life spent doing nothing. - GBS
==========================================================================
------------------------------
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