Linux-Misc Digest #939, Volume #26 Sat, 27 Jan 01 15:13:02 EST
Contents:
Redirect port scanning with ipchains? (Warren Bell)
Re: MS to Enforce Registration - or Else (John Hasler)
Re: What - no WYSIWYG HTML editors?? (Peter Schaffter)
Re: Bill Gates shot? (Bill Unruh)
Re: rpm -Fvh glibc-2.2.1-4mdk.i586.rpm (Neuromancer)
Re: How to use VNC? ("Arctic Storm")
RedHat's Linux 2.4 kernel package ? ("Arctic Storm")
Re: MS to Enforce Registration - or Else (Cubic Meter)
FA:IBM ThinkPad 365XD p133/24mb/1gb/cdrom/Linux+MORE (schlomo)
Re: Kernel recompilation - "system too big?" ("Jens K. Thomsen")
crontab blues ("Jens K. Thomsen")
Re: copying to a floppy (David Efflandt)
making copy of RH bootable CD on Windoze box ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Good hosting service??? (David Efflandt)
Re: How to use VNC? (David Efflandt)
Re: copying to a floppy (Bob Hauck)
configuring debian (john connolly)
Re: login in versus rlogin (David Efflandt)
Re: What - no WYSIWYG HTML editors?? (Robert Heller)
Re: What - no WYSIWYG HTML editors?? (Robert Heller)
Re: MS to Enforce Registration - or Else ("Edward Rosten")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Warren Bell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Redirect port scanning with ipchains?
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 09:15:17 -0800
I have someone that's port scanning me a lot. I have their IP blocked
but is there a way to redirect anything comming from that IP to another
hostname? What I want to do is redirect all this persons scanning to
their own ISP. And if I can do that will the ISP know the scans are
originating from the person scanning me? I just don't want to look like
the one doing the port scanning.
------------------------------
From: John Hasler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS to Enforce Registration - or Else
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 16:24:40 GMT
Edward Rosten writes:
> Christian morals were also invented by people.
And the US was _not_ founded on "Christian beliefs".
--
John Hasler
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, Wisconsin
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Peter Schaffter)
Subject: Re: What - no WYSIWYG HTML editors??
Date: 27 Jan 2001 17:27:36 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Sat, 27 Jan 2001 15:57:57 GMT, Grant Edwards wrote:
> In article <3a726e28$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Robert Heller wrote:
>
> >This is like asking: is there a machine that can make some sort of
> >passable orange juice from apples? The *reason* that WYSIWYG web page
> >design tools create such bad HTML code (that often fails to be be
> >cross-browser) is due to the fact that HTML is *specificly* designed NOT
> >to be WYSIWYG.
>
Damn, but that article by Robert Heller was good! Said
everything I would have said, and probably better. :) However,
as Grant Edwards points out:
> It's no use telling the point-n-click crowd this. I've been
> trying for years. They don't understand content-based mark-up.
> The only thing that exists in their mind is pixels on a screen.
I've been fighting this battle for years. Around the time
commerce co-opted the Web, I realised I'd lost. Once the
point-n-click crowd got their first taste of glitzy,
content-short-and-graphics-heavy web pages, the genie was out of
the bottle. There'll be no putting him back in. Ignorance and
stupidity always win because they have the numbers on their
side.
--
PTPi
(Peter Schaffter)
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bill Unruh)
Subject: Re: Bill Gates shot?
Date: 27 Jan 2001 17:28:30 GMT
In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Steve
Ackman) writes:
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/entertainment/newsid_1135000/1135152.stm
A mock documentary researching the "murder" of Microsoft
chairman Bill Gates has upset the multi-millionaire but, like
predecessor The Blair Witch Project, is making waves online,
reports Maggie Shiels from Silicon Valley.
------------------------------
From: Neuromancer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.os.linux.mandrake,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: rpm -Fvh glibc-2.2.1-4mdk.i586.rpm
Date: 27 Jan 2001 17:35:02 GMT
Thus spake lobotomy about Life, the Universe, and,
Re: rpm -Fvh glibc-2.2.1-4mdk.i586.rpm:
> Build it from source. OpenSSH doesn't require glibc2.2, in fact it
> doesn't even require glibc2. If you build it against the libraries on
> your system it will work fine. The fact that it won't be in your rpm
> database *probably* won't be as much trouble as breaking the glibc
> dependencies for everything on the system, unless you have software
> installed from RPM that depends on OpenSSH.
Even better, build it from source rpm.
rpm -i whatever.src.rpm
cd /usr/src/RPM
rpm -ba SPECS/whatever.spec
rpm -ivh RPMS/i586/whatever.i586.rpm
-Russ
--
Whiskey was invented so the Irish wouldn't rule the world.
------------------------------
From: "Arctic Storm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: How to use VNC?
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 17:39:09 GMT
> > I have installed VNC in my Linux and Windows partitions - easy! -
> >but aren't sure how to RUN the damn thing. I gather you have to use
> >telnet, but no information is given HOW to; eg, no EXAMPLES!
> > How do I telnet from my Windows into Linux to start the vncserver
> >there???
> > tia...
>
> If the remote machine is running Linux then,
>
> $ telnet remotemachine
> << LOGIN >>
> $ vncserver #might ask for a password if first run
>
> Then using a viewer in Windows you can connect to remotemachine:1 and
> display it there. Or, you can browse to http://remotemachine:5801 with
> a Java capable web browser.
Hmmm,.... I thoughth that telnet transmits passwords in clear text, raising
the issue of security risk.
------------------------------
From: "Arctic Storm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RedHat's Linux 2.4 kernel package ?
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 17:46:33 GMT
According to the RedHat web site, they will be releasing the official Linux
2.4 kernel package in a few weeks. Does anyone have information regarding
this? Will this be an RPM? Will this be one of those "balloon" packages
that will clean up all the RedHat 7 bugs, as well as upgrade the kernel?
------------------------------
From: Cubic Meter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS to Enforce Registration - or Else
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 13:17:43 -0500
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Glitch wrote:
> . wrote:
>
> > In comp.os.linux.advocacy Harlan Grove <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> In article <94snje$ekf$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (.) wrote:
> >> ...
> >>
> >>> Wasnt there something about a government BY the people and FOR the
> >>> people written down somewhere?
> >>
> >> ...
> >
> >
> >> The US is a republic not a democracy. Kindly read the Federalist Papers
> >> for the rationale behind not trusting the populace. It has a government
> >> of laws, and the laws in the state of Florida were fairly clear, and
> >> the polling stations had signs giving instructions that voters should
> >> make sure that their ballots were punched through and to remove hanging
> >> chads. And if they double-punched, they could ask for new ballot
> >> papers.
> >
> >
> > Ah, you dont have a very good understanding of what happened in florida.
> >
> > You're one of those insane federalists who believes that his government
> > is incapable of doing any sort of wrong, arent you?
> >
> > I'll bet you believe in god too, dontcha?
> >
> > Thats very sweet.
> >
>
> yeah <sarcasm> what a horrid idea to actually believe in God huh?
> <sarcasm>
>
> Considering the US was founded on Christian beliefs I find this normal
> and hopeful that people might actually have a set of morals not based on
> their own ideology (which would be inherently imperfect given we are
> human).
>
Yes, but if you think about it, most people, Christian or not, hold alot of
the same morals. The biggest difference is that Christians will tell you
that it is God's way, and others will tell you that it is "just right".
Most people know that it is wrong to kill other people. Not because God
said so, but because it is against the good of society (what good is a
society which lets its people walk around killing each other?). I am not
saying these are not God's morals, but I am saying that you can arrive at
some of the same through a different type of reasoning. Why shouldn't you
cheat on your mate? Well, maybe because God said it was wrong, but it is
bad because 1) you will cause great anguish to the person who probably
loves you 2) you open your self and partners up to various diseases 3) you
may potentially have to support more children, which will drain your
financial resources and both partners will suffer. I'm sure ther are other
reasons, but I will stop there. Why should you covet thy neighbor's wife,
house or oxen? Well, because it only makes you want for the things he has
and that can cause anguish within yourself and the people around you, so it
is better to just take what you got and don't let your neighbor intimidate
you.
When Moses went up on the mountain and came down with the Ten Commandments,
was that because God had told him, or was it that he saw all of the bad
things his people did willie nilly, and decided that he'd write down what
was best for people in a society, and just tell them that God said it?
People naturally have an instinct to fear what they cannot see, so if you
tell them fantastic stories about burning bushes and voices from nowhere,
and have that backed up by apparently unrelated wittnesses, then you will
gain some kind of control over at least some of the people. Tell them that
that mysterious God has given them a set of instructions to live by and
that they risk burning in eternal damnation with no hope of escape if they
don't follow them, they will fall into line. Wait until a big flood hits
then, say "See, God told me this would happen and you didn't listen! He was
angered", and more people will follow for fear of God's retaliation. Then,
when everyone is following your commandments, and a flood hits for no
apparent reason, say "The Lord works in mysterious ways". Then when people
who don't follow God get in an accident and get hurt, say "See, the Lord
punished him". And when people pray real hard for one thing or another, and
that prayer doesn't get answered, and things end up turning out better than
they would if thay had gotten their prayer answered, you say "Some of God's
greatest gifts are unanswered prayers". And when people ask why God lets
bad things happen to good people, you say "The Lord has a plan, and all of
this is just part of it". And when someone dies for no reason that you can
see, you tell everyone "The Lord needed him in Heaven, he is in a better
place now". And when someone questions God's doings on the grounds that
they make no logical sense, such as a plane crash which kills 300 people,
you tell them "You are just a human, and you have no hopes of understanding
why God does what he does. But rest assured that it was for a good
purpose".
Anyway, I'm not saying that God doesn't do all that he is said to do, I am
just saying that perhaps not every situation or happening involves God and
that what some call Christian morals may really just be logical rules for
living in a functioning society that most normal people "know"
instinctively.
I dunno, but I do know that we will all either know, or we all won't know
the truth in the end.
m^3
------------------------------
From: schlomo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.setup,chi.forsale,alt.comp.hardware
Subject: FA:IBM ThinkPad 365XD p133/24mb/1gb/cdrom/Linux+MORE
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 18:17:29 GMT
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1209819290
IBM ThinkPad 365XD Linux ............. [ThinkPenguine]
133MHZ CPU
11" Display
24MB Ram
1.0GB HD
Internal CD-ROM
External Floppy (IBM p/n 10h3980)
AC Adapter (IBM p/n 85G6709)
56K PCMCIA Fax/Modem
Two button mouse
External 1.0GB Sparq Drive including
removable cartridge w/ installed Linux driver
Linux Slackware 3.6 original 4 disc set included
Pre-installed software including Netscape 4.74,
Corel Wordperfect 8, and more...
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
------------------------------
From: "Jens K. Thomsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Kernel recompilation - "system too big?"
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 19:43:38 +0100
Hi
Try "make bzlilo" instead.
Jens
>
> This error comes up when doing "make zlilo" in the kernel recompilation
> process....
>
> I am trying to compile PPP support into the kernel (Rh6) - must I rather use
> modules? What is this error? How can I fix it?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Stefan Viljoen
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
Jens Kaalby Thomsen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://hemulen.dk
------------------------------
From: "Jens K. Thomsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: crontab blues
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 19:58:29 +0100
Hi
I need to do make backup's of mysql databases using crontab. First I
tested the command from the command line:
/usr/local/mysql/bin/mysqldump -uuser -ppass database >
/home/user/mysql/`date '+%Y%m%d%H'`
It works, I get a dump called 2001012719 (at 7 pm.)
Then I start crontab -e and enter the same line with:
00 * * * * /usr/local/mysql/bin/mysqldump -uuser -ppass database >
/home/user/mysql/`date '+%Y%m%d%H'`
It IS an identical line in crontab compared to the command line input.
The line IS correct if I do a crontab -l, however: It does not work! I
was afraid there was a problem with crond or whatever so I also added
this to crontab:
00 * * * * /usr/local/mysql/bin/mysqldump -uuser -ppass database >
/home/user/mysql/test
and a dump called test IS saved every hour. I can't figure out what is
wrong here, can you?
The crontab -e command is performed as and ordinary user.
Cheers,
Jens
--
Jens Kaalby Thomsen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (David Efflandt)
Subject: Re: copying to a floppy
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 18:55:48 +0000 (UTC)
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Thu, 25 Jan 2001, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>when I do 'cp filename.txt /dev/fd0'
>I copy the file directly to my floppy drive if i'm not mistaken,
>destroying everything that was on the disk. How can I get the file back
>however? I know I can do it with 'dd', but then I need to know the exact
>size of the file if I'm not mistaken. And I don't have to mount the
>floppy drive to do this?
>
>If someone has indeed a solution for my problem: does this work for
>other devices also? For Tape drives for example?
If you want to cp a file to a floppy, 'mount' it first as a directory on
your filesystem or use mtools (mtools is DOS 8.3 filenames only I think).
In order to mount a floppy it has to be already formatted (with mke2fs for
Linux format or mkfs.msdos for DOS format).
You only cp to /dev/fd0 if you are writing a raw image to it, like vmlinuz
for a boot floppy (without any filesystem). To cp to a raw device, the
floppy has to be perfectly formatted with no bad sectors, because it is
written sequentially to the disk with no FAT or other method to tell it
about or skip over bad sectors.
If it was a tar or cpio file, the file size info is in it and file(s)
could be easily extracted. If it was a fresh floppy there may just be
null characters past the end of the file. If it was a used floppy you
might have fun trying to find the end of a regular file if old data
extends past the end of it.
--
David Efflandt [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.de-srv.com/
http://www.autox.chicago.il.us/ http://www.berniesfloral.net/
http://cgi-help.virtualave.net/ http://hammer.prohosting.com/~cgi-wiz/
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: making copy of RH bootable CD on Windoze box
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 19:05:46 GMT
OK, so I have RH 6.0 purring along, and would like to make a copy of
the bootable install CD. However, I only have CD burners for my
various Windoze boxes. I tried doing a basic disk copy using the
latest flavour of Adaptecs software for doing same, but the copied CD
does not boot when I restart the Linux box.
I'm sure there are a few switches that need to be flipped - 'little
help'? :-)
Thanks in advance!
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (David Efflandt)
Subject: Re: Good hosting service???
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 19:21:14 +0000 (UTC)
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Thu, 25 Jan 2001, Julio C Gutierrez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>Do any of you know of a good (and cheap enough) hosting service? It would
>be nice if the host run linux/unix. :)
npsis.com (my autox site) is $7.99/mo or $79.90/yr for 50 MB, multiple
mail accts, telnet (if you request it), FreeBSD.
superuser.net (not .com) is $9.95/mo for 100 MB, anon-ftp, shell, etc. and
was running RH Linux last time I helped somebody on it.
--
David Efflandt [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.de-srv.com/
http://www.autox.chicago.il.us/ http://www.berniesfloral.net/
http://cgi-help.virtualave.net/ http://hammer.prohosting.com/~cgi-wiz/
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (David Efflandt)
Subject: Re: How to use VNC?
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 19:36:31 +0000 (UTC)
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Sat, 27 Jan 2001 15:08:59 +1100, Guy Parry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have installed VNC in my Linux and Windows partitions - easy! -
>but aren't sure how to RUN the damn thing. I gather you have to use
>telnet, but no information is given HOW to; eg, no EXAMPLES!
> How do I telnet from my Windows into Linux to start the vncserver
>there???
> tia...
There is a menu item in the Windows VNC to add something to your registry
to have its VNC server sitting as an icon in the taskbar automatically
when you boot. Then you could connect to it with Linux 'vncviewer
winbox:0' at any time. Otherwise I think you can start VNC manually from
Windows when you want to.
To run the vnc server on Linux you simply run 'vncserver' from Linux or
telnet from Windows, but you have to set a password before the first time
you use it. After that you simply tell Windows VNC client to connect to
'linuxbox:1'. But if you don't want twm as your window manage in VNC you
might want to change ~/.vnc/xstartup to use something else like
enlightenment or gnome-session or startkde (don't forget the trailing "&"
so it forks into the background).
--
David Efflandt [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.de-srv.com/
http://www.autox.chicago.il.us/ http://www.berniesfloral.net/
http://cgi-help.virtualave.net/ http://hammer.prohosting.com/~cgi-wiz/
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Hauck)
Subject: Re: copying to a floppy
Reply-To: bobh{at}haucks{dot}org
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 19:43:41 GMT
On Sat, 27 Jan 2001 15:54:58 +0100, Uwe Malzahn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>In article <94s8dg$u1d$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> Mike E. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>> when I do 'cp filename.txt /dev/fd0'
>>> I copy the file directly to my floppy drive if i'm not mistaken,
> I'm dead sure you are mistaken. What you are trying to do is, to copy
> filename.txt over the device entry. Doesn't work for a user. Destroys
> the device entry as root (just don't work as root).
No, it'll work, even as a user if you've got write permission on the
device node. You've destroyed the filesystem on the floppy, but the
file will get copied to the media and the device entry will still be
there in /dev. You can recover the file with dd if you know how big it
is, but if you intend on reading the floppy the normal way in another
machine then this isn't what you want to do.
Note that this is actually useful sometimes. You can tar/untar directly
to a floppy, or write a kernel image onto it to boot from. You can also
copy a floppy image directly to a file using a similar technique. This
is useful for duplicating entire floppies ala diskcopy in DOS, or if you
want to loopback-mount the floppy image.
> To copy the file you must mount the the floppy, by hand or
> automatically (see autofs).
Or use mtools: "mcopy file a:"
--
-| Bob Hauck
-| To Whom You Are Speaking
-| http://www.haucks.org/
------------------------------
From: john connolly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: configuring debian
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 19:47:16 GMT
I have debian potato installed but it doesn't recognize my ethernet card
(3com509...) on startup. What needs to be set in the config-2.2.17 file
to fix this? Currently
CONFIG_NET=y
CONFIG_NET_VENDOR_3COM=y
are set.
Thanks, JWC
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (David Efflandt)
Subject: Re: login in versus rlogin
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 19:50:35 +0000 (UTC)
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Fri, 26 Jan 2001 15:01:32 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>If I rlogin to my Linux box it asks for the root password, which I
>supply and I connect with no problem.
If you enabled rlogin for root, that is a jumbo security risk. Then
someone only has to snoop or guess one password to take over your system.
>If I connect directly to the box with a telnet session when I put in
>the root user and password it tells me login incorrect.
>
>Anybody know why it would behave like this?
The telnet behaviour is the way it is supposed to be. You can always
'su -' if you need to do something as root. But if you want to make your
system as insecure as your root rlogin, the terminals that root is allowed
to log into are in /etc/securetty.
But I suggest that you simply remove /root/.rhosts. I use it myself
locally as a normal user, but have all outside access for ftp, telnet, rsh
and rlogin blocked (and tested) from outside with /etc/host.allow and
hosts.deny (see 'man 5 hosts_access').
If I need to do anything from the internet on my box (like when travelling
with another ISP) I use ssh (Putty can do ssh from Windows).
--
David Efflandt [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.de-srv.com/
http://www.autox.chicago.il.us/ http://www.berniesfloral.net/
http://cgi-help.virtualave.net/ http://hammer.prohosting.com/~cgi-wiz/
------------------------------
From: Robert Heller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What - no WYSIWYG HTML editors??
Date: 27 Jan 2001 13:50:05 -0600
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Grant Edwards),
In a message on Sat, 27 Jan 2001 15:57:57 GMT, wrote :
GE> In article <3a726e28$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Robert Heller wrote:
GE>
GE> >This is like asking: is there a machine that can make some sort of
GE> >passable orange juice from apples? The *reason* that WYSIWYG web page
GE> >design tools create such bad HTML code (that often fails to be be
GE> >cross-browser) is due to the fact that HTML is *specificly* designed NOT
GE> >to be WYSIWYG.
GE>
GE> It's no use telling the point-n-click crowd this. I've been
GE> trying for years. They don't understand content-based mark-up.
GE> The only thing that exists in their mind is pixels on a screen.
GE>
GE> No matter how many times you explain it, they're still baffled
GE> when the all-singing, all-dancing, technicolor, cinimascape,
GE> content-free, web page they lovingly designed looks wrong at a
GE> different resolution, with a different browser, or *god-forbid*
GE> with a text browser.
I guess so. I guess there are only really two *sane* answers for these
people: they should just create a PDF file from a "Word Processor"
(such as Messed-Word, Work Perfect, or Star Office) or should create an
image using GIMP (or PhotoShop).
GE>
GE> --
GE> Grant Edwards grante Yow! Now I am depressed...
GE> at
GE> visi.com
GE>
--
\/
Robert Heller ||InterNet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://vis-www.cs.umass.edu/~heller || [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.deepsoft.com /\FidoNet: 1:321/153
Posted Via Nuthinbutnews Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
==========================================================
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION **
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http://www.nuthinbutnews.com
------------------------------
From: Robert Heller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What - no WYSIWYG HTML editors??
Date: 27 Jan 2001 13:50:05 -0600
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Peter Schaffter),
In a message on 27 Jan 2001 17:27:36 GMT, wrote :
PS> On Sat, 27 Jan 2001 15:57:57 GMT, Grant Edwards wrote:
PS> > In article <3a726e28$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Robert Heller wrote:
PS> >
PS> > >This is like asking: is there a machine that can make some sort of
PS> > >passable orange juice from apples? The *reason* that WYSIWYG web page
PS> > >design tools create such bad HTML code (that often fails to be be
PS> > >cross-browser) is due to the fact that HTML is *specificly* designed NOT
PS> > >to be WYSIWYG.
PS> >
PS> Damn, but that article by Robert Heller was good! Said
PS> everything I would have said, and probably better. :) However,
PS> as Grant Edwards points out:
PS>
PS> > It's no use telling the point-n-click crowd this. I've been
PS> > trying for years. They don't understand content-based mark-up.
PS> > The only thing that exists in their mind is pixels on a screen.
PS>
PS> I've been fighting this battle for years. Around the time
PS> commerce co-opted the Web, I realised I'd lost. Once the
PS> point-n-click crowd got their first taste of glitzy,
PS> content-short-and-graphics-heavy web pages, the genie was out of
PS> the bottle. There'll be no putting him back in. Ignorance and
PS> stupidity always win because they have the numbers on their
PS> side.
I guess the only *sane* thing to do is create a 'grownup' version of Web
Workshop For Kids -- probably with a GIMP plugin. Let the WYSIWYG use
GIMP to 'paint' their page, and use the plugin to create an image map
and the 30 lines of HTML:
(The *actual* HTML code from my niece Celeste's web site):
<BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff">
<CENTER><IMG BORDER=0 SRC = "index-.jpg" ALT = "index-.jpg" USEMAP =
"#index">
<MAP NAME = "index">
<AREA SHAPE="RECT" COORDS="56,101,119,149" HREF="anna.html">
<AREA SHAPE="RECT" COORDS="339,103,402,151" HREF="rainbows_ww.html">
<AREA SHAPE="RECT" COORDS="66,195,112,249"
HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~schepps">
<AREA SHAPE="RECT" COORDS="195,84,258,132" HREF="newyork.html">
<AREA SHAPE="RECT" COORDS="338,198,401,246" HREF="Mom.html">
<AREA SHAPE="RECT" COORDS="188,200,256,281"
HREF="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">
<AREA SHAPE="RECT" COORDS="245,22,316,75" HREF="sunnymorning.html">
</MAP>
<HR>
<CENTER> [ <A HREF="anna.html">anna</A> | <A
HREF="rainbows_ww.html">rainbows_ww</A> | <A
HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~schepps">~schepps</A> | <A
HREF="newyork.html">newyork</A> | <A HREF="Mom.html">Mom</A> | <A
HREF="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED]</A> | <A
HREF="sunnymorning.html">sunnymorning</A> ] </CENTER>
<HR><ADDRESS><CENTER>
Created with Web Workshop(tm) -
<A HREF="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">
[EMAIL PROTECTED]</A> -
<A HREF="http://www.vividus.com">
www.vividus.com</A>
</ADDRESS>
<HR>
</BODY>
Nice clean simple HTML. Works with *any* browser. Even includes text
links. (The ones relating to vividus.com are broken since vividus.com
is defunk.)
PS>
PS> --
PS> PTPi
PS> (Peter Schaffter)
PS>
--
\/
Robert Heller ||InterNet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://vis-www.cs.umass.edu/~heller || [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.deepsoft.com /\FidoNet: 1:321/153
Posted Via Nuthinbutnews Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
==========================================================
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION **
==========================================================
http://www.nuthinbutnews.com
------------------------------
From: "Edward Rosten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: MS to Enforce Registration - or Else
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 20:04:27 +0000
> People naturally have an instinct to fear what
> they cannot see, so if you tell them fantastic stories about burning
> bushes and voices from nowhere
The burning bush may have a foot in reality. IIRC, there is a bush which
secretes a light oil which and can burn without much harm to the bush.
Odd, if you ask me.
-Ed
--
Did you know that the reason that windows steam up in cold|Edward Rosten
weather is because of all the fish in the atmosphere? |u98ejr
- The Hackenthorpe Book of lies |@
|eng.ox.ac.uk
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