On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 10:46:01AM +1000, Julian Calaby wrote: > Hi all, > > It seems that new users are having trouble with the NDH, so I'm > proposing we make some fairly drastic changes to it.
Oh? I had a quick read through this, and i find most of it downright insulting as it shows that you are purely acting on the case of our parasitic friend, and that you have not taken any time to investigate any of your proposed changes or what you think are issues today. And to top it all off, once again, the statements seem to be coming from someone who never did bring up a device from scratch: http://linux-sunxi.org/Special:Contributions/JulianCalaby > I must point out that once everyone is happy with the wording of the > wiki changes below, I'll make these changes. Oh really? > 1. Have a stock email template to send new users when they inevitably > post device specific questions before going through the NDH. > > I'm talking something alone the lines of: > > = = = = = = = = = = = = > > Hi, <name> > > Thanks for participating in the Linux sunXi community. We're a > volunteer based group of people dedicated to providing a stock, > upstream Linux experience for Allwinner's sunXi devices. > > Please note that we only provide basic assistance for building the > kernel and u-boot components of Allwinner's SDKs. We cannot provide > any other support. Please contact Allwinner if you're having problems. > > Because of the huge and diverse number of devices which use these > chipsets, we need some information from you before we assist you with > your device: > - Memory details > - The stock FEX file > - And some basic information, including photos, about your device. > We'd like you to put that information in our support repositories and > wiki so other people can find it in the future. > > If you complete the New Device Howto ( > http://linux-sunxi.org/New_Device_howto ) we'll be able to give you > much better and more specific advice and assistance with your device. > > If you have any questions or queries about this process, please email > us here and prefix your emails with "NDH: ". > > Thanks, > > The Linux-sunxi community. > > = = = = = = = = = = = = > > This should also be at the top of the NDH page on the wiki. Jason would have given up already after the third sentene, no, correction; third word. He ould then be silent for a day or two, perhapse a week, and then he would come back with a rephrase of his original question. You should look at Jason his first emails back in early august, and look at the whole history. Having said that, giving me a standard template that is nice and rosey and lulls people into thinking that we do not personally care at all anymore, is perhaps a good thing. It will make me a less easy target for our Forker and his subversion tactics. > 2. Make it much more prominent on the main page > > I'm talking a prominent box at the top of the main page which reads > something along the lines of: > > "Got a new device? Please complete the New Device Howto so we have the > information we need to assist you with your device." I suggest that you go read our main page. The text there is terse and concise, it flows naturally into things, and very quickly mentions the new device howto by name. Putting a big nasty box on that front page is just going to scare more people off again, or lead to people refusing to read what actually matters. Ignore that quick reference guide and the tutorials, i have been working long and hard on making them less and less important and i would like to phase those out completely in the long term. So feel free to blame me for not having worked the wiki enough: http://linux-sunxi.org/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/New_Device_howto&limit=500 As for the current state of the front page, here is a rundown of the links in the text of our main page, and how they link NDH: #01: Community -> directly: 2x. -> secondarily: 3x -> Categories: too much to count. #02: Devices -> directly: 1x -> secondarily: 1x -> categories: more than a hundred times. #03: Allwinner -> directly: none -> secondarily: none #04: SoCs -> directly: none -> secondarily: none #05: #01 again -> loads of links #06: #01 again -> loads of links #07: #03 again -> no links #08: GPL violations -> no direct or indirect links #09: #01 again -> loads of links #10: Identification guide: -> directly: 1x -> indirectly: none -> categories: worse than #02 #11: Direct hit! #12: Buying guide -> directly: 2x -> indirectly: none -> categories: worse than #02 The NDH and identification guide are also linked directly from the Quick reference guide that i personally do not like. All in all, the NDH is linked 72 times: http://linux-sunxi.org/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/New_Device_howto As said, the wiki is not perfect, but feel free to try to find one that comes within a mile of it. Even so, I think that one needs to be selectively blind to be able to not hit the NDH. > 3. Point out other places where they can get support for their > development boards > > Cubieboard, Olimex and others have their own development forums, we > should point people who don't want stock Linux on their device there. Wrong. When people look for support for their device, they first hit the hw vendor, then they either hit us or they hit slatedroid or something, depending on what they are looking for. If people hit our site, then they have excluded the other two already. We do not get first hand customers, we get those who were not satisfied with the other options. Secondly, our device page example has a section all the way at the bottom under "See also" that is called "Manufacturer images". When people hit linux-sunxi randomly, they should hit the device page very quickly. At the bottom of this device page, they should find what they are looking for if linux-sunxi is not what they were looking for in the first place. Then, if you go look at "communities" of the makers of development boards... To what extent are they not referencing our wiki and repositories? How often do or did they blatantly copy our wiki or repositories? How horribly outdated are some of those copies today? Did you ever look at that? Or did you just blurt the above out? We do not need to steer people to their vendors websites. period. That's not what we are there for, and that's not what people need from us. > 4. Add an overview section at the top of the NDH > > Something like: > > We need the following information from you: > > Fex file | This will go into the sunxi-boards repository > Mem info | This will be used to produce an entry for your device in > the sunxi-uboot repository > Device info | This will go into the wiki page for your device > Photos | These will go into the wiki page for your device > > I think this would be useful as a "map" to guide users in following > the NDH process. All I'm proposing is that we list all the info they > need to get and where it'll end up. Nothing more than that. This will not help much, and will only mean more confusing text. But... The NDH is a plastic document, it's on a bloody wiki! There are almost constant improvements to it and the device page example. Once again, i suggest that you bring some facts into things and look at the history of these pages. > 5. Move all the FAQ entries to the bottom > > Nobody wants to be grumped at before they've even started looking at > the process. Long-form explanations should go at the bottom. We want > to entice users in with the simplicity of what we're asking, not grump > at them about them potentially complaining about it being tedious > before they've even started. These are not FAQs. These are debunking the reasons that people like Jason have for not reading the other bits of text. This sits on top for a reason. > 6. Simplify all the steps Are you phoning this in? > 7. Move the "build a kernel" to a "next steps" section. > > This is what they've come here to do. We don't want to potentially > give them the impression that we're not going to assist them in doing > this until after they've done it. First off, it really pays to build an SD-Card and test u-boot and the kernel. So we should never keep people from doing so, it should be mandatory to do so. Secondly, the wiki is the first line of support for everybody. People should get straight into the manual build howto after they have done the first bits. And that manual build how to should be all the help people need. Again, if you had done the NDH yourself, or if you had thought this through, or had properly looked at the relevant pages, you wouldn't be writing this. > > 8. Update the NDH / wiki with answers to their questions > > If they can't understand how to do something, then that's a problem > with the instructions, not them. So therefore the answer should end up > somewhere in the wiki. Did you at any point care to look at the history of the relevant pages on our wiki? I am pretty sure that you never did. > I also think we need to make some changes to how we treat new users on > the mailing list / IRC (I'm not on IRC so I'm speculating here.) So you're not on irc either. Do you have any frame of reference? I suggest that you go look at irc logs, and that you see how evil libv treats people there as well. The difference between irc and email is the level of involvement, and the level of clue. It's easy to tap out a single line email and send it into the void. It's not as easy to log onto irc, and it makes one much more vulnerable. But i of course slam people with NDH on irc just the same. But since those are different people, with a different attitude, the rate of success is much much higher. > > 1. Only doorslam them once > > I.e. send them the template I mentioned above once and once only. No > other email we send them should be nothing more than "DO THE NDH". Go read the jason email thread from all the way from the start of august. Do you really want me to spend even more of my time spoonfeeding stuff to people? Because if i am not allowed to repeat NDH to people like Jason, what else should i do? Unsubscribe them from the list? > 2. Answer general questions without NDHing them > > So if they ask stuff like: > "So how can I identify my chipset" > "Can I do $TASK on allwinner chipsets?" > "Does an allwinner chipset have $FEATURE?" > "But the NDH is difficult?" > etc. we help them. What? When did we not do that? Go get some facts instead of making blanket accusations. > If they ask "I'm trying to get i2s working on my $BOARD?" then we NDH > them, or give them very general information and ask them to NDH so we > can give them more specific information. I smell people like Jason miles away. I know that guys like him ask strange questions with no real background for a reason. This is why guys like him get slammed by me that quickly. And either they shape up quickly, and soon are able to help themselves, or they never will get anything done and will have to be spoonfed forever, and should therefor be ignored. But feel free to spend _your_ time on spoonfeeding guys like that. I am against split lists, as those always were completely counterproductive and were always shortlived with lots of crosstalk. But perhaps android-sunxi or sunxi-newbies could be an idea. There you and others can spend loads of your time handholding people like jason. Not exactly a recipe for longevity if you ask me. And besides, that's what the vendor communities and slatedroid are for. > 3. Be nice to them > > Some people have gotten somewhat aggressive about this whole process. > Please don't. It's making us look bad. If someone has a problem, we > need to give them constructive feedback, not slam the door in their > face. If they're having trouble figuring out the NDH, it's not because > they're stupid, it's because we haven't explained it clearly enough. "we haven't explained it clearly enough" Who is "we" here? Try finding any wiki which is this precise, concise and helpful. And then look at the history behind our wiki. > I'm not proposing that we hold every user's hand while they do this, > just be prepared and happy to answer their questions when they > inevitably ask them. There are cases where people are utterly unwilling to help themselves. Jason was one of those. He deserves no pity. I hope he is really happy using another SoC. > 4. Take responsibility for this process > > We really need to adopt the attitude that our users aren't stupid, > we're not explaining stuff clearly enough for them. Again, go look at the wiki history. Another big sign that you have never ever done so. > Ok, some are truly stupid or at least don't "get" what we're saying, > but they're fairly rare. Stupid is rare. Lazy is common. > 4. Help them get it right, not throw their work away > > If someone makes a mistake, give them the information they need to > correct it themselves, don't just revert / delete it. What? You didn't look at the history of that page either? > Yes, mem info and fexs don't belong on the wiki, but if someone puts > them up there, explain to them what they did wrong instead of > immediately reverting the changes. They'll learn more if they do it > themselves. He had just sent them in to the ml. Look at the history of the page, and the timing of the emails. Also, pick any 5 of our 101 device pages. _ANY_ 5 device pages And look at their histories in detail. And _SEE_ how much time _I_ have spent helping people get their devices up and their device pages into shape. Look at my change history. I spent weeks cleaning up 50-60 pieces of shit, and turning them into something matching a common template, carefully sifting through the contents, trying to salvage whatever was salvagable. You are soo far from reality here, it is no longer funny. This is full on insulting. Heck... Check this guy out: http://linux-sunxi.org/Special:Contributions/Louigi600 Any guesses as to why he decided, out of the supposed blue, to work this device page all of a sudden? Would he be doing this on his own, or could there be someone handholding him? Perhaps a look at the history of the device page could give you a hint. > 5. Assist them where they need it > > If they can't do git properly, and send us crap, we should explain to > them how to fix it, or in the worst case scenario, let them just send > us the files. Until the very end he never said that he cannot do git. Which is a lie, he was not willing to spend the time learning how to use git. And right before he made that statement, I told him that i would handle things for him. Any guess as to how many files i stuck into our repos which i had to scrape out of all corners of the interweb? Some of our device pages are little more than what info i could google and some half decent internal shots. Anything salvagable is still there. > This is all going to require some more up front effort from all of us, Then why don't you start actually putting in some effort. All you did was send off a random email based on a single email thread, which was soo off base and void of facts that all you did was insult me to no end, and make an utter fool of yourself for not having done the legwork. > but as we streamline the process and put more answers to common > questions into the wiki, that amount of effort should taper off. No shit, sherlock. > I'm more than happy to assist where I can - I haven't in the past as I > don't feel I have enough "authority" to do this, but given the state > of our handling of new users and devices, I can't see that my efforts > would hurt. But you did feel that you had the authority to write this email. After all is said and done, after i wasted ages try to give a concise reply to everything here... There is very little here that is either new or useful. Most of it is a baseless brainfart, based on one email thread with someone who from day0 was unwilling to put any effort in. You did not investigate anything or think anything through, all you did was blurt out how you think it should be. You could have spent this time actually fixing up the wiki, or even handholding Jason for all i care, but you did not. All you did was fire off an easy non-committing email. And finally... Once you are done investigating the history of our wiki, which is something you cannot avoid anymore, you should ask yourself... Who at linux-sunxi spends tons of time supporting users? I definitely am not a patient man, and i hate absolutely hate spoonfeeding. I give slightly cryptic answers for a reason: so that people learn to help themselves. I slam people with NDH so that they go help themselves, and i have written most of the wiki to support that. You and some others clearly missed that bit. Now. I do not want any apologies for this massive insult here. I want you to shut up about how you think things should be, and i want to see you work users, code _AND_ the wiki like a man. I do not want you or others to wholesale rework the wiki from an idealogical point of view. I want to see you people actually use sunxi code on sunxi hw, and fix up the small corners where things were not complete or not clear. And i do not want to hear any further bullshit excuses about having no hardware to NDH, we support the cheapest hw there ever was on this planet. Luc Verhaegen. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "linux-sunxi" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
