Hi Luc, Let's start at the top.
I, as somewhat of an outsider, see this community as being somewhat hostile to new people, and you are one of the primary drivers of that attitude. Your response below does nothing to change that opinion. I don't pretend to be able to change your behaviour, but maybe if we set up a framework for dealing with new people, we could work towards making this community more inclusive or at least less hostile. On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 1:31 PM, Luc Verhaegen <[email protected]> wrote: > On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 10:46:01AM +1000, Julian Calaby wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> It seems that new users are having trouble with the NDH, so I'm >> proposing we make some fairly drastic changes to it. > > Oh? > > I had a quick read through this, and i find most of it downright > insulting as it shows that you are purely acting on the case of our > parasitic friend, and that you have not taken any time to investigate > any of your proposed changes or what you think are issues today. I proposed this for _DISCUSSION_ based upon my reading of the last batch of new people who have tried to enter our community. Not based upon one single person's experiences. > And to top it all off, once again, the statements seem to be coming from > someone who never did bring up a device from scratch: > http://linux-sunxi.org/Special:Contributions/JulianCalaby I have a sunxi device, it's a Kogan Agora tablet with a sun4i SoC. I've been through the entire NDH, including running the Sunxi 3.4 kernel on it and have everything ready to be sent off. The only reasons why I haven't are: 1. I lost the free time I was using for this and never "completed" it. (Hence the incomplete device page which you justifiably deleted a while back.) 2. I wanted to have this be the first device to come through the tool I was developing in that time to assist in this process (again, halted due to lack of spare time) If you'd like, I can send off that stuff tonight, so you can have some hard proof that I have actually been through this entire process. Personally, I see it as being very straight forward, but then I've been compiling my own kernels and submitting the occasional patch to various mailing lists for close to a decade. The hardest part for me was actually identifying my device as it's a rebranded mishmash of about 3 different, more "known" tablets. >> I must point out that once everyone is happy with the wording of the >> wiki changes below, I'll make these changes. > > Oh really? You seem to place a very high value on not actually doing anything you don't see as "valuable". I'm offering to make these changes so you don't have to. All I'm expecting is some constructive discussion on my points and an eventual "that sounds good". Nothing else. I'll happily do all the work for this. >> 1. Have a stock email template to send new users when they inevitably >> post device specific questions before going through the NDH. >> >> I'm talking something alone the lines of: >> >> = = = = = = = = = = = = >> >> Hi, <name> >> >> Thanks for participating in the Linux sunXi community. We're a >> volunteer based group of people dedicated to providing a stock, >> upstream Linux experience for Allwinner's sunXi devices. >> >> Please note that we only provide basic assistance for building the >> kernel and u-boot components of Allwinner's SDKs. We cannot provide >> any other support. Please contact Allwinner if you're having problems. >> >> Because of the huge and diverse number of devices which use these >> chipsets, we need some information from you before we assist you with >> your device: >> - Memory details >> - The stock FEX file >> - And some basic information, including photos, about your device. >> We'd like you to put that information in our support repositories and >> wiki so other people can find it in the future. >> >> If you complete the New Device Howto ( >> http://linux-sunxi.org/New_Device_howto ) we'll be able to give you >> much better and more specific advice and assistance with your device. >> >> If you have any questions or queries about this process, please email >> us here and prefix your emails with "NDH: ". >> >> Thanks, >> >> The Linux-sunxi community. >> >> = = = = = = = = = = = = >> >> This should also be at the top of the NDH page on the wiki. > > Jason would have given up already after the third sentene, no, > correction; third word. He ould then be silent for a day or two, > perhapse a week, and then he would come back with a rephrase of his > original question. > > You should look at Jason his first emails back in early august, and look > at the whole history. > > Having said that, giving me a standard template that is nice and rosey > and lulls people into thinking that we do not personally care at all > anymore, is perhaps a good thing. It will make me a less easy target > for our Forker and his subversion tactics. Personally, I find email conversations which are nothing more than: "Help me get Linux on my device" => "READ THE NDH" to be highly offensive. I'm proposing that the "READ THE NDH" part be replaced with something that answers 90% of their general "how do I start here" questions. I'll even send it if you'd like. >> 2. Make it much more prominent on the main page >> >> I'm talking a prominent box at the top of the main page which reads >> something along the lines of: >> >> "Got a new device? Please complete the New Device Howto so we have the >> information we need to assist you with your device." > > I suggest that you go read our main page. > > The text there is terse and concise, it flows naturally into things, and > very quickly mentions the new device howto by name. Putting a big nasty > box on that front page is just going to scare more people off again, or > lead to people refusing to read what actually matters. Yes, I agree that it is well written and explains the general stuff, however the NDH link is buried in the third section down. If I'm skimming that page, I'm going to know more about GPL violations than how to actually get started. I'm proposing a new section at the top that stands out a little more. Nothing else. Or maybe we could just bold the sentence with the NDH link. I don't know. I'm trying to get discussion on the issues I see here. > Ignore that quick reference guide and the tutorials, i have been working > long and hard on making them less and less important and i would like to > phase those out completely in the long term. So feel free to blame me > for not having worked the wiki enough: > http://linux-sunxi.org/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/New_Device_howto&limit=500 Nobody is trying to attack your contributions. I'm just trying to make it easier for a novice to start here. > As for the current state of the front page, here is a rundown of the > links in the text of our main page, and how they link NDH: > #01: Community -> directly: 2x. > -> secondarily: 3x > -> Categories: too much to count. > #02: Devices -> directly: 1x > -> secondarily: 1x > -> categories: more than a hundred times. > #03: Allwinner -> directly: none > -> secondarily: none > #04: SoCs -> directly: none > -> secondarily: none > #05: #01 again -> loads of links > #06: #01 again -> loads of links > #07: #03 again -> no links > #08: GPL violations > -> no direct or indirect links > #09: #01 again -> loads of links > #10: Identification guide: > -> directly: 1x > -> indirectly: none > -> categories: worse than #02 > #11: Direct hit! > #12: Buying guide > -> directly: 2x > -> indirectly: none > -> categories: worse than #02 > > The NDH and identification guide are also linked directly from the Quick > reference guide that i personally do not like. > > All in all, the NDH is linked 72 times: > http://linux-sunxi.org/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/New_Device_howto > > As said, the wiki is not perfect, but feel free to try to find one that > comes within a mile of it. > > Even so, I think that one needs to be selectively blind to be able to > not hit the NDH. You're looking at the wrong numbers here. I'm a novice, I just got a sunxi device from $VENDOR, I hate the stock android on it because it sucks for $REASON, I want to stick stock Linux on there and run $DISTRO because it's awesome. 1. I go to http://linux-sunxi.org/ as that seems to be where linux + sunxi happens. 2. I skim the main page, looking for something to download, the first place I'd go to would be the "bootable OS images" as that's the first link that seems to be trying to do what I want. 3. I want Debian, so I click on the first Debian link and I'm lost on some other forum where there's nothing to help me and no images that suit my device. 4. I go to look at the hwpack resources as that seems to be what I need to make this work 5. Still nothing that will help me as all the hwpacks linked and details are not for my device. Chances are that this person would then go to the mailing list / IRC and get doorslammed when they ask about help with their device. We could have solved this if we made the first link that sticks out on the main page the NDH. Incidentally, this is the _exact_ path I took when I first tried to bring up my board, however I found the BSP, hacked around that for a bit and eventually got Linux (kinda) booting on my device. >> 3. Point out other places where they can get support for their >> development boards >> >> Cubieboard, Olimex and others have their own development forums, we >> should point people who don't want stock Linux on their device there. > > Wrong. > > When people look for support for their device, they first hit the hw > vendor, then they either hit us or they hit slatedroid or something, > depending on what they are looking for. If people hit our site, then > they have excluded the other two already. We do not get first hand > customers, we get those who were not satisfied with the other options. > > Secondly, our device page example has a section all the way at the > bottom under "See also" that is called "Manufacturer images". When > people hit linux-sunxi randomly, they should hit the device page very > quickly. At the bottom of this device page, they should find what they > are looking for if linux-sunxi is not what they were looking for in the > first place. > > Then, if you go look at "communities" of the makers of development > boards... To what extent are they not referencing our wiki and > repositories? How often do or did they blatantly copy our wiki or > repositories? How horribly outdated are some of those copies today? Did > you ever look at that? Or did you just blurt the above out? > > We do not need to steer people to their vendors websites. period. That's > not what we are there for, and that's not what people need from us. I must note that if you type in "linux allwinner" or "android allwinner" on Google, we're the first link. If I have problems with Olimex's Android running on my Olimex board and am unwilling to compile my own, would you help me on this forum? No. You'd probably point me to Olimex, where I would get help. I've seen several people end up here trying to get support for their vendor customised Allwinner SDK derived kernel / Android / whatever. I'm trying to point them towards the support they're after. The more pages between them and the answer they're looking for, the more likely they're going to give up and come to the mailing list looking for answers. Of course if they do want "real" Linux on their device, then this is certainly the place to be. >> 4. Add an overview section at the top of the NDH >> >> Something like: >> >> We need the following information from you: >> >> Fex file | This will go into the sunxi-boards repository >> Mem info | This will be used to produce an entry for your device in >> the sunxi-uboot repository >> Device info | This will go into the wiki page for your device >> Photos | These will go into the wiki page for your device >> >> I think this would be useful as a "map" to guide users in following >> the NDH process. All I'm proposing is that we list all the info they >> need to get and where it'll end up. Nothing more than that. > > This will not help much, and will only mean more confusing text. But... > The NDH is a plastic document, it's on a bloody wiki! > > There are almost constant improvements to it and the device page > example. Once again, i suggest that you bring some facts into things > and look at the history of these pages. Yes there are. That isn't the point. I'm saying let's have a section which says "you need to get this information and stick it in these places". An overview. A "map". The only reason I haven't added it myself is that I want to discuss it first. I don't want to add what I think might be a good addition only to have the next user be confused or you to revert the change without discussion. >> 5. Move all the FAQ entries to the bottom >> >> Nobody wants to be grumped at before they've even started looking at >> the process. Long-form explanations should go at the bottom. We want >> to entice users in with the simplicity of what we're asking, not grump >> at them about them potentially complaining about it being tedious >> before they've even started. > > These are not FAQs. These are debunking the reasons that people like > Jason have for not reading the other bits of text. This sits on top > for a reason. They smell like FAQs. I guess I didn't read them that closely, so I retract this point. If we have to change this, I'd recommend adding a two line summary in bold for why this has to happen and sticking the rest at the bottom. But I still retract this point. >> 6. Simplify all the steps > > Are you phoning this in? Simplify may not be the right word. I meant to make them clearer and easier to follow. For example: Step 1: If we split this up into sub steps, it might be easier to skim read. Something like: 1. Google it 2. Search Android forums 3. Search the linux-sunxi stuff 4. Open your device (if you're brave) 5. Google part numbers (only with actual details not just titles) and link to http://linux-sunxi.org/Identification_guide Step 2: Looks fine to me. There was some minor language issues which didn't read well to me, so I've fixed that. Sigh. It looks like once again I have followed my experiences bringing up my device and not re-read this today. Everything from here onwards is very clear. Apart from my points about step 1, I retract this point. >> 7. Move the "build a kernel" to a "next steps" section. >> >> This is what they've come here to do. We don't want to potentially >> give them the impression that we're not going to assist them in doing >> this until after they've done it. > > First off, it really pays to build an SD-Card and test u-boot and the > kernel. So we should never keep people from doing so, it should be > mandatory to do so. Totally agree. My point was that if my goal is to get Linux running on my device and this step fails, then I'm going to be in the position where if I follow the letter of what people are saying to me, I can't ask questions (I.e. "no questions about your device until you NDH") however I can't progress without help. (e.g. "I can't figure out how to boot from SD on my device") > Secondly, the wiki is the first line of support for everybody. People > should get straight into the manual build howto after they have done the > first bits. And that manual build how to should be all the help people > need. Definitely. Hence me proposing it be the "next steps". However there can be issues with toolchains (have seen it here and experienced it myself) and other random stuff (BSP had issues with Debian when I was bringing my device up that required hacking) and other things which could block this step. I don't want anyone to ever be confused about whether or not they can ask questions. (as described above) > Again, if you had done the NDH yourself, or if you had thought this > through, or had properly looked at the relevant pages, you wouldn't be > writing this. I have been through all of this myself as I detailed above. >> 8. Update the NDH / wiki with answers to their questions >> >> If they can't understand how to do something, then that's a problem >> with the instructions, not them. So therefore the answer should end up >> somewhere in the wiki. > > Did you at any point care to look at the history of the relevant pages > on our wiki? I am pretty sure that you never did. Fair enough. I've looked now and you (and other people) are adding details to the pages to address people's concerns. My issue is that there have been times when people have asked questions (particularly about the NDH) and been chased away instead of being helped. >> I also think we need to make some changes to how we treat new users on >> the mailing list / IRC (I'm not on IRC so I'm speculating here.) > > So you're not on irc either. Do you have any frame of reference? > > I suggest that you go look at irc logs, and that you see how evil libv > treats people there as well. Wait what? > The difference between irc and email is the level of involvement, and > the level of clue. It's easy to tap out a single line email and send it > into the void. It's not as easy to log onto irc, and it makes one much > more vulnerable. > > But i of course slam people with NDH on irc just the same. But since > those are different people, with a different attitude, the rate of > success is much much higher. Fair enough. In that case, I limit this section to the mailing list only. As you've pointed out, I don't have the experience to talk about IRC. >> 1. Only doorslam them once >> >> I.e. send them the template I mentioned above once and once only. No >> other email we send them should be nothing more than "DO THE NDH". > > Go read the jason email thread from all the way from the start of > august. > > Do you really want me to spend even more of my time spoonfeeding stuff > to people? Because if i am not allowed to repeat NDH to people like > Jason, what else should i do? Unsubscribe them from the list? Be constructive. And if you can't help, let someone else do it. As I said at the bottom, I haven't done that because I don't feel I have enough "authority" to do so, and generally someone else answers before I can. I'm saying that it's unwelcoming if we repeatedly answer people's queries with "Do the NDH" without even pretending to help them. Sometimes hand holding is necessary. Spoonfeeding, however, should never be. >> 2. Answer general questions without NDHing them >> >> So if they ask stuff like: >> "So how can I identify my chipset" >> "Can I do $TASK on allwinner chipsets?" >> "Does an allwinner chipset have $FEATURE?" >> "But the NDH is difficult?" >> etc. we help them. > > What? When did we not do that? Go get some facts instead of making > blanket accusations. The last question is frequently answered with "Do the NDH". In general people are helpful about this, but the attitudes of people towards people working through the NDH doesn't make it look like we will be. >> If they ask "I'm trying to get i2s working on my $BOARD?" then we NDH >> them, or give them very general information and ask them to NDH so we >> can give them more specific information. > > I smell people like Jason miles away. I know that guys like him ask > strange questions with no real background for a reason. This is why guys > like him get slammed by me that quickly. And either they shape up > quickly, and soon are able to help themselves, or they never will get > anything done and will have to be spoonfed forever, and should therefor > be ignored. > > But feel free to spend _your_ time on spoonfeeding guys like that. I'm not talking spoon feeding. In the case of my question above, if someone said "Puneet had some success with this, search the archives here $LINK, but we can't help you with your board until you complete the NDH" then that'd be much more helpful than just "Do the NDH". It's the difference between "We want to help but we need something from you first" and "fuck off". > I am against split lists, as those always were completely > counterproductive and were always shortlived with lots of crosstalk. But > perhaps android-sunxi or sunxi-newbies could be an idea. There you and > others can spend loads of your time handholding people like jason. > > Not exactly a recipe for longevity if you ask me. And besides, that's > what the vendor communities and slatedroid are for. I'm not talking about split lists. XDA has that model and it's horrible - I have nothing to contribute there except bug reports about the ROM I use and I can't do that because I'm not "old" enough to post on the development thread. >> 3. Be nice to them >> >> Some people have gotten somewhat aggressive about this whole process. >> Please don't. It's making us look bad. If someone has a problem, we >> need to give them constructive feedback, not slam the door in their >> face. If they're having trouble figuring out the NDH, it's not because >> they're stupid, it's because we haven't explained it clearly enough. > > "we haven't explained it clearly enough" Who is "we" here? Try finding > any wiki which is this precise, concise and helpful. And then look at > the history behind our wiki. I get the impression, from reading posts on our mailing list (incidentally, I read everything except some patches) that people would rather say "you're dumb" than "oh, that needs some work". I'm probably wrong. That said, I'd rather say this out loud and be preaching to the choir than not. My gold standard for getting Linux running on a device is the Debian and Gentoo instructions. I think we're close, but not yet at that level of detail. >> I'm not proposing that we hold every user's hand while they do this, >> just be prepared and happy to answer their questions when they >> inevitably ask them. > > There are cases where people are utterly unwilling to help themselves. > Jason was one of those. He deserves no pity. I hope he is really happy > using another SoC. Definitely. And they should either learn to help themselves and not be a burden or go away. >> 4. Take responsibility for this process >> >> We really need to adopt the attitude that our users aren't stupid, >> we're not explaining stuff clearly enough for them. > > Again, go look at the wiki history. Another big sign that you have never > ever done so. I'll agree that clarity has improved immeasurably, however I feel that there's always room for improvement. >> Ok, some are truly stupid or at least don't "get" what we're saying, >> but they're fairly rare. > > Stupid is rare. Lazy is common. True. >> 4. Help them get it right, not throw their work away >> >> If someone makes a mistake, give them the information they need to >> correct it themselves, don't just revert / delete it. > > What? You didn't look at the history of that page either? In the case of Jason, he misunderstood what was required, uploaded the files to the wrong place, and instead of someone saying "No, you upload those files _here_, re-read this section and when you've done that, delete them from the wiki.", his contributions were (mostly) deleted. That's pretty discouraging. When I started, I nearly made the same mistake. Nothing is more discouraging than people telling you that your contributions aren't wanted. >> Yes, mem info and fexs don't belong on the wiki, but if someone puts >> them up there, explain to them what they did wrong instead of >> immediately reverting the changes. They'll learn more if they do it >> themselves. > > He had just sent them in to the ml. Look at the history of the page, and > the timing of the emails. > > Also, pick any 5 of our 101 device pages. _ANY_ 5 device pages And look > at their histories in detail. And _SEE_ how much time _I_ have spent > helping people get their devices up and their device pages into shape. > > Look at my change history. I spent weeks cleaning up 50-60 pieces of > shit, and turning them into something matching a common template, > carefully sifting through the contents, trying to salvage whatever was > salvagable. > > You are soo far from reality here, it is no longer funny. This is full > on insulting. > > Heck... Check this guy out: > http://linux-sunxi.org/Special:Contributions/Louigi600 > > Any guesses as to why he decided, out of the supposed blue, to work this > device page all of a sudden? Would he be doing this on his own, or could > there be someone handholding him? Perhaps a look at the history of the > device page could give you a hint. Clearly I don't have the entire picture. I saw this scenario happen a couple of times: Someone wants to start, has lots of questions, repeatedly gets doorslammed, and finally ragequits. Maybe I'm focusing too much on the negatives here and I'm sorry if I've inadvertently insulted you. >> 5. Assist them where they need it >> >> If they can't do git properly, and send us crap, we should explain to >> them how to fix it, or in the worst case scenario, let them just send >> us the files. > > Until the very end he never said that he cannot do git. Which is a lie, > he was not willing to spend the time learning how to use git. > > And right before he made that statement, I told him that i would handle > things for him. > > Any guess as to how many files i stuck into our repos which i had to > scrape out of all corners of the interweb? Some of our device pages are > little more than what info i could google and some half decent internal > shots. Anything salvagable is still there. I'm not trying to say that you're not helping get this valuable information together, I'm just concerned that your attitude on the mailing list is not helpful. >> This is all going to require some more up front effort from all of us, > > Then why don't you start actually putting in some effort. All you did > was send off a random email based on a single email thread, which was > soo off base and void of facts that all you did was insult me to no end, > and make an utter fool of yourself for not having done the legwork. As I stated at the start, I wanted to propose these changes for discussion before I made them. As far as I'm concerned, the wiki is your domain. I don't want to make big changes and then step on your toes or get yelled at for it. >> but as we streamline the process and put more answers to common >> questions into the wiki, that amount of effort should taper off. > > No shit, sherlock. > >> I'm more than happy to assist where I can - I haven't in the past as I >> don't feel I have enough "authority" to do this, but given the state >> of our handling of new users and devices, I can't see that my efforts >> would hurt. > > But you did feel that you had the authority to write this email. I felt that this community isn't as friendly as it could be, so I spoke out about it. There's a big difference between "hey let's all get along" and trying to give someone technical support on stuff you're not entirely confident about. > After all is said and done, after i wasted ages try to give a concise > reply to everything here... There is very little here that is either new > or useful. Most of it is a baseless brainfart, based on one email thread > with someone who from day0 was unwilling to put any effort in. You did > not investigate anything or think anything through, all you did was > blurt out how you think it should be. I guess I have too. As I said above, I wrote this hoping that I was preaching to the choir. Yes, Jason's experiences shaped how I felt about this, but my concerns about this community's "attitude" have been brewing for a lot longer than that. > You could have spent this time actually fixing up the wiki, or even > handholding Jason for all i care, but you did not. All you did was fire > off an easy non-committing email. I'm at work. I have only so much time. Given your attitude towards outsiders, I felt that proposing the changes I'd like to see made before making them was the correct path to fixing what I perceive as problems with our wiki and community. As I said above, I didn't want to step on your toes, I thought this was the best way to avoid that. I was clearly wrong. > And finally... > > Once you are done investigating the history of our wiki, which is > something you cannot avoid anymore, you should ask yourself... > > Who at linux-sunxi spends tons of time supporting users? You do spend a lot of time helping users, but I wouldn't be surprised if the vast majority of the bickering on this mailing list involved you. > I definitely am not a patient man, and i hate absolutely hate > spoonfeeding. I give slightly cryptic answers for a reason: so that > people learn to help themselves. I slam people with NDH so that they go > help themselves, and i have written most of the wiki to support that. > > You and some others clearly missed that bit. Again, fair enough. I guess I'm looking at this from the perspective of the most recent examples of people being turned away from here - which made me angry and I possibly acted too fast. > Now. > > I do not want any apologies for this massive insult here. > > I want you to shut up about how you think things should be, and i want > to see you work users, code _AND_ the wiki like a man. I do not want you > or others to wholesale rework the wiki from an idealogical point of > view. I want to see you people actually use sunxi code on sunxi hw, and > fix up the small corners where things were not complete or not clear. Fair enough. I'll try to find time to submit my stuff. I don't (yet) have much to contribute other than the details of my device, but I'll do what I can. But you're more than welcome to Google me if you'd like to see what I do. I am "just some guy", but I'm not a newbie. > And i do not want to hear any further bullshit excuses about having no > hardware to NDH, we support the cheapest hw there ever was on this > planet. I haven't made any excuses about not having hardware. I've explained my situation above. Thanks, -- Julian Calaby Email: [email protected] Profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/julian.calaby/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "linux-sunxi" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
