On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 03:45:59PM +1000, Julian Calaby wrote: > Hi Luc, > > Let's start at the top. > > I, as somewhat of an outsider, see this community as being somewhat > hostile to new people, and you are one of the primary drivers of that > attitude. Your response below does nothing to change that opinion. I > don't pretend to be able to change your behaviour, but maybe if we set > up a framework for dealing with new people, we could work towards > making this community more inclusive or at least less hostile.
Heh. > I proposed this for _DISCUSSION_ based upon my reading of the last > batch of new people who have tried to enter our community. Not based > upon one single person's experiences. You did not however go and investigate any of the proposals you made. You did not take anything else into account but a few NDH slammings on our ml. And instead of trying to help people directly, you decided to write that email and this one. > > > And to top it all off, once again, the statements seem to be coming from > > someone who never did bring up a device from scratch: > > http://linux-sunxi.org/Special:Contributions/JulianCalaby > > I have a sunxi device, it's a Kogan Agora tablet with a sun4i SoC. > > I've been through the entire NDH, including running the Sunxi 3.4 > kernel on it and have everything ready to be sent off. The only > reasons why I haven't are: > 1. I lost the free time I was using for this and never "completed" it. > (Hence the incomplete device page which you justifiably deleted a > while back.) > 2. I wanted to have this be the first device to come through the tool > I was developing in that time to assist in this process (again, halted > due to lack of spare time) > > If you'd like, I can send off that stuff tonight, so you can have some > hard proof that I have actually been through this entire process. > > Personally, I see it as being very straight forward, but then I've > been compiling my own kernels and submitting the occasional patch to > various mailing lists for close to a decade. The hardest part for me > was actually identifying my device as it's a rebranded mishmash of > about 3 different, more "known" tablets. The fact that you only now created the wiki page _shows_ that you never really followed the NDH. You followed those bits that seemed to suit you most directly. Not what is standard procedure, not what helps others or draw more people into this community. It's amazing how you are so high and mighty, and talk so big about what should be written where, when you yourself refuse to follow simple and straight directives. Out of laziness. Creating that device page today does make amends, of sorts, but it doesn't hide the above facts. Also, the way in which you created this page once again showed that you did not stick to the template at all, and only implemented those bits which suited you most directly. Quite perpendicular to your statements. Having said that, for a first stab, your device page was of a higher standard than those i usually see. What the page still needs is: * some quick measurements * android information from the original image. * FEL button, and a confirmation that the hw button is a reset button. * disassembly information. These are some very crucial parts to any device page, and they should not be ignored. Now if those are added, i will push up the uboot and boards patches, and remove the NDH_TODO status. > > Oh really? > > You seem to place a very high value on not actually doing anything you > don't see as "valuable". I'm offering to make these changes so you > don't have to. All I'm expecting is some constructive discussion on my > points and an eventual "that sounds good". Nothing else. I'll happily > do all the work for this. I am a cynical bastard. I have been round the block way, way too often. When i read statements like that, i know that there is little real or little lasting that is going to happen. > > > > Jason would have given up already after the third sentene, no, > > correction; third word. He ould then be silent for a day or two, > > perhapse a week, and then he would come back with a rephrase of his > > original question. > > > > You should look at Jason his first emails back in early august, and look > > at the whole history. > > > > Having said that, giving me a standard template that is nice and rosey > > and lulls people into thinking that we do not personally care at all > > anymore, is perhaps a good thing. It will make me a less easy target > > for our Forker and his subversion tactics. > > Personally, I find email conversations which are nothing more than: > > "Help me get Linux on my device" => "READ THE NDH" > > to be highly offensive. > > I'm proposing that the "READ THE NDH" part be replaced with something > that answers 90% of their general "how do I start here" questions. > I'll even send it if you'd like. And the new device howto is not, or should not be, the document that explains how to get started? Our front page or device identification lead to the NDH quick enough. But... Given that people are already on irc or the ml, they should have seen our front page... And... By the time people get slammed with NDH, it is clear that they are on not previously documented hw. So really, in the cases that are referenced here, the answer to "where do i start" is "New_Device_howto". > > I suggest that you go read our main page. > > > > The text there is terse and concise, it flows naturally into things, and > > very quickly mentions the new device howto by name. Putting a big nasty > > box on that front page is just going to scare more people off again, or > > lead to people refusing to read what actually matters. > > Yes, I agree that it is well written and explains the general stuff, > however the NDH link is buried in the third section down. It is far from buried. There is barely any text on that page. > If I'm skimming that page, I'm going to know more about GPL violations > than how to actually get started. This is something that needs to be stated. > I'm proposing a new section at the top that stands out a little more. > Nothing else. Or maybe we could just bold the sentence with the NDH > link. I don't know. I'm trying to get discussion on the issues I see > here. The initial sentence and those 3 sections are exactly how they should be. They give people the quick overview that they need. This does require some reading comprehension and an attention span that is measurable. > > Ignore that quick reference guide and the tutorials, i have been working > > long and hard on making them less and less important and i would like to > > phase those out completely in the long term. So feel free to blame me > > for not having worked the wiki enough: > > http://linux-sunxi.org/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/New_Device_howto&limit=500 > > Nobody is trying to attack your contributions. I'm just trying to make > it easier for a novice to start here. > > > As for the current state of the front page, here is a rundown of the > > links in the text of our main page, and how they link NDH: > > #01: Community -> directly: 2x. > > -> secondarily: 3x > > -> Categories: too much to count. > > #02: Devices -> directly: 1x > > -> secondarily: 1x > > -> categories: more than a hundred times. > > #03: Allwinner -> directly: none > > -> secondarily: none > > #04: SoCs -> directly: none > > -> secondarily: none > > #05: #01 again -> loads of links > > #06: #01 again -> loads of links > > #07: #03 again -> no links > > #08: GPL violations > > -> no direct or indirect links > > #09: #01 again -> loads of links > > #10: Identification guide: > > -> directly: 1x > > -> indirectly: none > > -> categories: worse than #02 > > #11: Direct hit! > > #12: Buying guide > > -> directly: 2x > > -> indirectly: none > > -> categories: worse than #02 > > > > The NDH and identification guide are also linked directly from the Quick > > reference guide that i personally do not like. > > > > All in all, the NDH is linked 72 times: > > http://linux-sunxi.org/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/New_Device_howto > > > > As said, the wiki is not perfect, but feel free to try to find one that > > comes within a mile of it. > > > > Even so, I think that one needs to be selectively blind to be able to > > not hit the NDH. > > You're looking at the wrong numbers here. I am just proving to you quite clearly that the NDH is hard to ignore. But those that get slammed with NDH repeatedly, they still try to do so. > I'm a novice, I just got a sunxi device from $VENDOR, I hate the stock > android on it because it sucks for $REASON, I want to stick stock > Linux on there and run $DISTRO because it's awesome. > > 1. I go to http://linux-sunxi.org/ as that seems to be where linux + > sunxi happens. > 2. I skim the main page, looking for something to download, the first > place I'd go to would be the "bootable OS images" as that's the first > link that seems to be trying to do what I want. > 3. I want Debian, so I click on the first Debian link and I'm lost on > some other forum where there's nothing to help me and no images that > suit my device. > 4. I go to look at the hwpack resources as that seems to be what I > need to make this work > 5. Still nothing that will help me as all the hwpacks linked and > details are not for my device. > > Chances are that this person would then go to the mailing list / IRC > and get doorslammed when they ask about help with their device. > > We could have solved this if we made the first link that sticks out on > the main page the NDH. No. The solution is not to add stuff. But to take stuff away. The Quick Reference table has no place on our front page. It is misleading and leads people down the wrong path. Thank you for proving this. This will now change. > Incidentally, this is the _exact_ path I took when I first tried to > bring up my board, however I found the BSP, hacked around that for a > bit and eventually got Linux (kinda) booting on my device. > > >> 3. Point out other places where they can get support for their > >> development boards > >> > >> Cubieboard, Olimex and others have their own development forums, we > >> should point people who don't want stock Linux on their device there. > > > > Wrong. > > > > When people look for support for their device, they first hit the hw > > vendor, then they either hit us or they hit slatedroid or something, > > depending on what they are looking for. If people hit our site, then > > they have excluded the other two already. We do not get first hand > > customers, we get those who were not satisfied with the other options. > > > > Secondly, our device page example has a section all the way at the > > bottom under "See also" that is called "Manufacturer images". When > > people hit linux-sunxi randomly, they should hit the device page very > > quickly. At the bottom of this device page, they should find what they > > are looking for if linux-sunxi is not what they were looking for in the > > first place. > > > > Then, if you go look at "communities" of the makers of development > > boards... To what extent are they not referencing our wiki and > > repositories? How often do or did they blatantly copy our wiki or > > repositories? How horribly outdated are some of those copies today? Did > > you ever look at that? Or did you just blurt the above out? > > > > We do not need to steer people to their vendors websites. period. That's > > not what we are there for, and that's not what people need from us. > > I must note that if you type in "linux allwinner" or "android > allwinner" on Google, we're the first link. But people do not search for allwinner. People search for the device name, or the android id strings or something. And perhaps they add "android" or "linux" to that. > If I have problems with Olimex's Android running on my Olimex board > and am unwilling to compile my own, would you help me on this forum? Forum? Your example makes it clear that $vendor android is what you want to use today. There is no point in linux-sunxi then. > No. You'd probably point me to Olimex, where I would get help. Yes. But that is something else entirely than cluttering up our front page with something stating: "there is no room for you here, go to your vendor and your vendor only" to everyone. > I've seen several people end up here trying to get support for their > vendor customised Allwinner SDK derived kernel / Android / whatever. > I'm trying to point them towards the support they're after. This should not be done indiscriminately. Just like people don't get slammed nastily with NDH indiscriminately. > The more pages between them and the answer they're looking for, the > more likely they're going to give up and come to the mailing list > looking for answers. Or finally type something in the search box. It's amazing how few people have learned that skill. > Of course if they do want "real" Linux on their device, then this is > certainly the place to be. ... > > This will not help much, and will only mean more confusing text. But... > > The NDH is a plastic document, it's on a bloody wiki! > > > > There are almost constant improvements to it and the device page > > example. Once again, i suggest that you bring some facts into things > > and look at the history of these pages. > > Yes there are. That isn't the point. > > I'm saying let's have a section which says "you need to get this > information and stick it in these places". An overview. A "map". This does not help. It's more text people will not read. And if people think they have the "map", then they skip all the rest, at best. You too worked off your own map when you both brought up your device and made your device page today. > The only reason I haven't added it myself is that I want to discuss it > first. I don't want to add what I think might be a good addition only > to have the next user be confused or you to revert the change without > discussion. > > > These are not FAQs. These are debunking the reasons that people like > > Jason have for not reading the other bits of text. This sits on top > > for a reason. > > They smell like FAQs. I guess I didn't read them that closely, so I > retract this point. > > If we have to change this, I'd recommend adding a two line summary in > bold for why this has to happen and sticking the rest at the bottom. > But I still retract this point. I admit that it has become a bit of a distraction. And it will only become more so as more and more Jasons come round. But the page will still start with something along the lines of "this is a lot of work, but there is no way around and it is very rewarding. If you are still not convinced go [[link| here for a more in depth list of reasons as to why you need to do this.]]" > >> 6. Simplify all the steps > > > > Are you phoning this in? > > Simplify may not be the right word. I meant to make them clearer and > easier to follow. For example: > > Step 1: > > If we split this up into sub steps, it might be easier to skim read. > > Something like: > 1. Google it > 2. Search Android forums > 3. Search the linux-sunxi stuff > 4. Open your device (if you're brave) > 5. Google part numbers > (only with actual details not just titles) > > and link to http://linux-sunxi.org/Identification_guide The link might be lacking. I tend to do the rest myself anyway. Making this a list of bullet points is not going to encourage people to do any investigation themselves. It is not very mandatory anyway, and just saves times all around. > Step 2: > > Looks fine to me. There was some minor language issues which didn't > read well to me, so I've fixed that. > > Sigh. It looks like once again I have followed my experiences bringing > up my device and not re-read this today. Everything from here onwards > is very clear. Apart from my points about step 1, I retract this > point. You did not re-read this. There's tons of red on your device page again. > > First off, it really pays to build an SD-Card and test u-boot and the > > kernel. So we should never keep people from doing so, it should be > > mandatory to do so. > > Totally agree. My point was that if my goal is to get Linux running on > my device and this step fails, then I'm going to be in the position > where if I follow the letter of what people are saying to me, I can't > ask questions (I.e. "no questions about your device until you NDH") > however I can't progress without help. (e.g. "I can't figure out how > to boot from SD on my device") If you had followed the NDH... You would have had a mostly complete device page already at this point. You would have had this working document, this basis which you could've used to ask people questions with, this bit of information that others could've used to give you some directed pointers... But even you failed that... And from your statement just now, you failed to grasp that this was the key difference to pretty much everything. If there is a work-in-progress device page, people do not get slammed with NDH. Why should they, it is clear that they are working the NDH, and that they ran into a specific issue. > > Secondly, the wiki is the first line of support for everybody. People > > should get straight into the manual build howto after they have done the > > first bits. And that manual build how to should be all the help people > > need. > > Definitely. Hence me proposing it be the "next steps". > > However there can be issues with toolchains (have seen it here and > experienced it myself) and other random stuff (BSP had issues with > Debian when I was bringing my device up that required hacking) and > other things which could block this step. Did you run into issues with toolchains and random stuff, and did you document them? I think not. But more the latter than the former. > I don't want anyone to ever be confused about whether or not they can > ask questions. (as described above) There never was any confusion. People ask certain questions in certain ways, and it is almost immediately clear who or what they are. They then get asked what hardware this is (or if i am really impatient, i slam them straight away, and save some time.). In those first 2-3 lines on IRC, or 1-2 emails, it is pretty clear what sort of fish i am dealing with. The less information is provided, the less likely the punter is willing to work towards a real solution. That's the key to tagging bad apples. That's the key to my NDH slamming as well. > > Again, if you had done the NDH yourself, or if you had thought this > > through, or had properly looked at the relevant pages, you wouldn't be > > writing this. > > I have been through all of this myself as I detailed above. Nope. As detailed above. > >> 8. Update the NDH / wiki with answers to their questions > >> > >> If they can't understand how to do something, then that's a problem > >> with the instructions, not them. So therefore the answer should end up > >> somewhere in the wiki. > > > > Did you at any point care to look at the history of the relevant pages > > on our wiki? I am pretty sure that you never did. > > Fair enough. I've looked now and you (and other people) are adding > details to the pages to address people's concerns. My issue is that > there have been times when people have asked questions (particularly > about the NDH) and been chased away instead of being helped. Again, there are different ways of asking for help. And they very clearly show what sort of help people are looking for, and how involved these people will want to be in providing answers. > >> I also think we need to make some changes to how we treat new users on > >> the mailing list / IRC (I'm not on IRC so I'm speculating here.) > > > > So you're not on irc either. Do you have any frame of reference? > > > > I suggest that you go look at irc logs, and that you see how evil libv > > treats people there as well. > > Wait what? > > > The difference between irc and email is the level of involvement, and > > the level of clue. It's easy to tap out a single line email and send it > > into the void. It's not as easy to log onto irc, and it makes one much > > more vulnerable. > > > > But i of course slam people with NDH on irc just the same. But since > > those are different people, with a different attitude, the rate of > > success is much much higher. > > Fair enough. > > In that case, I limit this section to the mailing list only. As you've > pointed out, I don't have the experience to talk about IRC. > > >> 1. Only doorslam them once > >> > >> I.e. send them the template I mentioned above once and once only. No > >> other email we send them should be nothing more than "DO THE NDH". > > > > Go read the jason email thread from all the way from the start of > > august. > > > > Do you really want me to spend even more of my time spoonfeeding stuff > > to people? Because if i am not allowed to repeat NDH to people like > > Jason, what else should i do? Unsubscribe them from the list? > > Be constructive. And if you can't help, let someone else do it. As I > said at the bottom, I haven't done that because I don't feel I have > enough "authority" to do so, and generally someone else answers before > I can. > > I'm saying that it's unwelcoming if we repeatedly answer people's > queries with "Do the NDH" without even pretending to help them. > Sometimes hand holding is necessary. Spoonfeeding, however, should > never be. There we go again. There is no way to be constructive with a person like Jason. Since I have this reputation anyway, i actually rather get in early with NDH, and prevent others from wasting their time on a person like Jason. > > What? When did we not do that? Go get some facts instead of making > > blanket accusations. > > The last question is frequently answered with "Do the NDH". > > In general people are helpful about this, but the attitudes of people > towards people working through the NDH doesn't make it look like we > will be. Wrong. Very very wrong. I have always supported people who earnestly were working their device pages. To very very extreme extents. And there is nobody else in this community who has done so for more than a few lines. And even those people are very rare (but really appreciated). Once again, you are not sticking to the facts. You are working off of Jason, and his kind. > > I smell people like Jason miles away. I know that guys like him ask > > strange questions with no real background for a reason. This is why guys > > like him get slammed by me that quickly. And either they shape up > > quickly, and soon are able to help themselves, or they never will get > > anything done and will have to be spoonfed forever, and should therefor > > be ignored. > > > > But feel free to spend _your_ time on spoonfeeding guys like that. > > I'm not talking spoon feeding. > > In the case of my question above, if someone said "Puneet had some > success with this, search the archives here $LINK, but we can't help > you with your board until you complete the NDH" then that'd be much > more helpful than just "Do the NDH". It's the difference between "We > want to help but we need something from you first" and "fuck off". People get slammed with that page. The top of that page clearly explains why this should be done. What more is there to add? "Pretty please, with sugar on top"? > I'm not talking about split lists. XDA has that model and it's > horrible - I have nothing to contribute there except bug reports about > the ROM I use and I can't do that because I'm not "old" enough to post > on the development thread. > > "we haven't explained it clearly enough" Who is "we" here? Try finding > > any wiki which is this precise, concise and helpful. And then look at > > the history behind our wiki. > > I get the impression, from reading posts on our mailing list > (incidentally, I read everything except some patches) that people > would rather say "you're dumb" than "oh, that needs some work". I'm > probably wrong. That said, I'd rather say this out loud and be > preaching to the choir than not. > > My gold standard for getting Linux running on a device is the Debian > and Gentoo instructions. I think we're close, but not yet at that > level of detail. No. That is not what we are about. Distributions change all the time. We are here to provide what is needed for good support of this hardware, not to handhold people through installing a distribution. What is on this site for distribution specifics should be limited, and not not be: a) repeating other howtos, be it on this site or on others. b) so in depth that it changes on the next update. > > There are cases where people are utterly unwilling to help themselves. > > Jason was one of those. He deserves no pity. I hope he is really happy > > using another SoC. > > Definitely. And they should either learn to help themselves and not be > a burden or go away. Which is why people like that get slammed with NDH, repeatedly. > > Again, go look at the wiki history. Another big sign that you have never > > ever done so. > > I'll agree that clarity has improved immeasurably, however I feel that > there's always room for improvement. It's a wiki. > > Stupid is rare. Lazy is common. > > True. > > What? You didn't look at the history of that page either? > > In the case of Jason, he misunderstood what was required, uploaded the > files to the wrong place, and instead of someone saying "No, you > upload those files _here_, re-read this section and when you've done > that, delete them from the wiki.", his contributions were (mostly) > deleted. That's pretty discouraging. When I started, I nearly made the > same mistake. Nothing is more discouraging than people telling you > that your contributions aren't wanted. Nope. If i had done that, he would've bolted just the same. And i still got to remove them myself from the page. This was slightly more efficient. > > He had just sent them in to the ml. Look at the history of the page, and > > the timing of the emails. > > > > Also, pick any 5 of our 101 device pages. _ANY_ 5 device pages And look > > at their histories in detail. And _SEE_ how much time _I_ have spent > > helping people get their devices up and their device pages into shape. > > > > Look at my change history. I spent weeks cleaning up 50-60 pieces of > > shit, and turning them into something matching a common template, > > carefully sifting through the contents, trying to salvage whatever was > > salvagable. > > > > You are soo far from reality here, it is no longer funny. This is full > > on insulting. > > > > Heck... Check this guy out: > > http://linux-sunxi.org/Special:Contributions/Louigi600 > > > > Any guesses as to why he decided, out of the supposed blue, to work this > > device page all of a sudden? Would he be doing this on his own, or could > > there be someone handholding him? Perhaps a look at the history of the > > device page could give you a hint. > > Clearly I don't have the entire picture. I saw this scenario happen a > couple of times: Someone wants to start, has lots of questions, > repeatedly gets doorslammed, and finally ragequits. Maybe I'm focusing > too much on the negatives here and I'm sorry if I've inadvertently > insulted you. No. Some people ask bad questions. Then dodge the NDH repeatedly. Then ragequit. I do not think that anyone who has ever done so over being NDHed was ever intending to work to help themselves. The above example happened because i looked for A13_MID, and landed on this persons Slackware page. I then contacted him, and he quickly responded. He then started adding to the device page which he started more than two years ago. He has put in a lot of work, but so have i, especially since he often did not read up. But, he was willing to work on it, so i was willing to go the distance as well. This is the key to everything. If people are flakes, they get treated as they deserve. If people are willing to work to help themselves, then there has been little limit to the help i provide. > > Until the very end he never said that he cannot do git. Which is a lie, > > he was not willing to spend the time learning how to use git. > > > > And right before he made that statement, I told him that i would handle > > things for him. > > > > Any guess as to how many files i stuck into our repos which i had to > > scrape out of all corners of the interweb? Some of our device pages are > > little more than what info i could google and some half decent internal > > shots. Anything salvagable is still there. > > I'm not trying to say that you're not helping get this valuable > information together, I'm just concerned that your attitude on the > mailing list is not helpful. >From now on, i will CC you as soon as i feel that a person is most likely a flake. Then you yourself can see whether this will actually improve things, or whether it will just be a big waste of time. > > Then why don't you start actually putting in some effort. All you did > > was send off a random email based on a single email thread, which was > > soo off base and void of facts that all you did was insult me to no end, > > and make an utter fool of yourself for not having done the legwork. > > As I stated at the start, I wanted to propose these changes for > discussion before I made them. > > As far as I'm concerned, the wiki is your domain. I don't want to make > big changes and then step on your toes or get yelled at for it. > >> but as we streamline the process and put more answers to common > >> questions into the wiki, that amount of effort should taper off. > > > > No shit, sherlock. > > > >> I'm more than happy to assist where I can - I haven't in the past as I > >> don't feel I have enough "authority" to do this, but given the state > >> of our handling of new users and devices, I can't see that my efforts > >> would hurt. > > > > But you did feel that you had the authority to write this email. > > I felt that this community isn't as friendly as it could be, so I > spoke out about it. > > There's a big difference between "hey let's all get along" and trying > to give someone technical support on stuff you're not entirely > confident about. I am not sure this sentence makes any sense to me. But that's of course just me. The NDH is not about providing technical support on stuff i am not certain about. > > After all is said and done, after i wasted ages try to give a concise > > reply to everything here... There is very little here that is either new > > or useful. Most of it is a baseless brainfart, based on one email thread > > with someone who from day0 was unwilling to put any effort in. You did > > not investigate anything or think anything through, all you did was > > blurt out how you think it should be. > > I guess I have too. > > As I said above, I wrote this hoping that I was preaching to the > choir. Yes, Jason's experiences shaped how I felt about this, but my > concerns about this community's "attitude" have been brewing for a lot > longer than that. Then why did you not help Jason directly? Why did you waste time on this email instead of doing something real? > I'm at work. I have only so much time. Given your attitude towards > outsiders, I felt that proposing the changes I'd like to see made > before making them was the correct path to fixing what I perceive as > problems with our wiki and community. As I said above, I didn't want > to step on your toes, I thought this was the best way to avoid that. I > was clearly wrong. You should have started with NDHing, properly. Not the other way around, like you did now. > You do spend a lot of time helping users, but I wouldn't be surprised > if the vast majority of the bickering on this mailing list involved > you. Oh, of course. I am an abrupt and impatient man, especialy on things that give me needless work because others cannot be bothered, or because of stupid politics. > Again, fair enough. I guess I'm looking at this from the perspective > of the most recent examples of people being turned away from here - > which made me angry and I possibly acted too fast. > > > Now. > > > > I do not want any apologies for this massive insult here. > > > > I want you to shut up about how you think things should be, and i want > > to see you work users, code _AND_ the wiki like a man. I do not want you > > or others to wholesale rework the wiki from an idealogical point of > > view. I want to see you people actually use sunxi code on sunxi hw, and > > fix up the small corners where things were not complete or not clear. > > Fair enough. I'll try to find time to submit my stuff. > > I don't (yet) have much to contribute other than the details of my > device, but I'll do what I can. > > But you're more than welcome to Google me if you'd like to see what I > do. I am "just some guy", but I'm not a newbie. Let your future contributions speak. > > And i do not want to hear any further bullshit excuses about having no > > hardware to NDH, we support the cheapest hw there ever was on this > > planet. > > I haven't made any excuses about not having hardware. I've explained > my situation above. Sure, but others have. Now can we finally end this? Can you finish up the holes in your device page? Can you put your money where your mouth is and help users, so you will learn this flake recognition by having your time wasted for yourself? The NDH will improve, bit by bit, naturally. Luc Verhaegen. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "linux-sunxi" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
